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M1905 & M1910 T Handle Shovel 1905 - 1943


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Combined with this topic: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=38524

 

Where does this specific shovel fit it? There still are some differences with the "M1905" model.

 

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Greetz ;)

 

David

 

This shovel is still a mystery. On the other topic forum member Possum posted a photo which he believes shows one of the "British Made" shovels. It's very hard for me to see it but Possum must have a better view.

 

If the shovel was made by the UK why are there so few in existence today? Wouldn't there be at least a few more out there? Also shouldn't the shovel have a Broad Arrow stamp? I can't remember but do the British made US web gear have the Broad Arrow marking?

 

The 1905 annual report mentions the testing of prototype shovels. Perhaps this is one? Unfortunately the report doesn't go into much detail explaining the prototype shovels. The descriptions are very vague.

Frankie G.

 

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Here's a photo of my Ordnance Department marked shovel. It's a 1910 pattern. I've seen the Rock Island Arsenal schematics for the 1905 and 1910 shovel and the only difference I can see is that the 1905 did not have the "filler" between the handle and the socket. See the second picture showing the filler.

Tim

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I don't know anything about shovels, but I do know a lot about the Army, and one of its precepts is, "If it moves, salute it; if it doesn't, paint it."

 

I run across M1913 scabbards all the time that have been period-painted OD green, probably when they became so soiled as to present an unmilitary appearance. Painting an item is still a popular method of making a tired old piece of equipment look brand-new.

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Yes, british made reverse lend lease items were technically purchased by the British and turned over to the US Army, so they were Broad arrow marked. So in theory a British made shovel shhould have one.

 

Having looked at more British Made paperwork than most people I can say I never saw any references to them, but that proves nothing. The only way to really know if they were procured is to check the contract log in the British Archives, of which the only guy I ever knew that had loated it has vanished off my radar.

 

I think it is a very interesting concept that it might be be the early items that were not painted. Although I personally don't think the adoption of paint would be due to the uniform color.

 

In the back of my mind I seem to recall reading something about guys getting blisters from the tools. I can;t remember where that was.

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In the back of my mind I seem to recall reading something about guys getting blisters from the tools. I can;t remember where that was.

 

I read that too in reference to larger tools such as axes and shovels that were standard equipment for most vehicles. Paint on the handle would cause blisters, while oiled natural wood wouldn't - at least not as fast. I think I read this on the g503.com forums.

 

Greetz ;)

 

David

Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Corvette than in a Yugo.

 

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  • 5 months later...

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I rounded all my shovels as I redoe my war room. From Left to Right-top. The much debated unsupported handle, Supported added/spot welded. Wrap around support/British or French made? No Notch. Notched. WWII dated T-Handle, WWII Folding. More to come. Robert

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Now the debated non-supported handle that most said is a surplus dealer item. But if you look at the left one you can see where a supporting piece was added and spot welded. To stir up a hornets nest I still say the unsupported on was a military item and after weakness was discovered they added the extra support. I will now duck to miss incoming. Robert

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Robert,

 

Great shovels and great posts! When you get done showing these off, I submit that this thread needs to go into the reference section.

 

The "wrap around, un-supported" variant, as you call it, was speculated in another thead to be the original M1910 design before the reinforcing was added to the back.

 

Thanks for sharing.

Mike

"Hope is not a course of action." Sean P. Kelly, SSG, 1st US Ranger Battalion

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I never knew there were that many examples! :thumbsup:

Looking for for 37th Division

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USS Hemminger DE 746 items

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Now the debated non-supported handle that most said is a surplus dealer item. But if you look at the left one you can see where a supporting piece was added and spot welded. To stir up a hornets nest I still say the unsupported on was a military item and after weakness was discovered they added the extra support. I will now duck to miss incoming. Robert

 

Nice group of shovels, looks like you have all the variations covered :thumbsup: .

 

As for the unsupported shovel, I thought that had been finally debunked by finding documentary evidence that the early shovels were supposed to be reinforced on both sides. Here's what the 1905 Annual Reports states-

2. Construct the reenforce—the upper and lower continuations of the blade along the handle—to the point indicated on the model. Upper and lower parts of the reenforce to be of the same length, instead of having the upper one longer than the lower, as on the present model.

 

This was discussed on topics-

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...c=40896&hl=

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=38524

 

Now the shovel with clearly welded support is still a mystery and that shovel's origins is still a mystery. I have compared that shovel to an unsupported one and both shovels are completely different. That means the welded reinforcement shovel was not originally one of the unsupported ones since the blades and handles plus hardware do not match in any way.

Frankie G.

 

Check out my US World War I Site,

http://www.aef-doughboys.com

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I'm one of those collectors who never believed the unsupported shovels were issue items, having said that they remained a mystery. Many collectors have had these shovels in their collections for years. So why would someone produce something at a time when there would be a good supply of surplus shovels presumably reasonably priced on the market already? I think I might have found an answer, or at least will greatly add to the confusion. :rolleyes: I happened to catch the 1945 movie "The Story of G.I. Joe" which follows war correspondant Ernie Pyle (played by a young Burgess Meredith) through the war. In the movie Ernie carries one of our mystery shovels!!! My first thought was that the studio may have used surplus handles and simple stamped heads to produce a reasonable prop for the movie. I'm still not convinced they would have gone to the trouble but we can at least assume these shovels have been around since at least 1945. Any thoughts?

Tim

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Robert,

 

I'm glad to see that someone else has the e-tool bug as bad as I do. I've had one of those wrap-around supported's for MANY years, and have always thought they were British made. I can't prove it one way or another. But mine is marked with a taller than normal US on the top side of the handle socket. It's in its original finish, with quite a bit of OD paint left.

 

Maybe now I can come out of the closet with my shovels. I'll try to get around to posting them in the near future for comparison.

 

By the way, what's the date and make of the latest T-handle you've all seen or own ?

 

Best regards,

 

Paul Walker

Klamath Falls, Oregon.

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Frankie: Thanks for adding the links to the other threads which discuss the "un-supported" or "back-strapless" (or should that be "strapless back" - sounds like a slinky cocktail dress) e-tool.

 

This thread and both of those that you gave links to should be added to the reference section under the field gear tools section. They're pretty comprehensive discussions on the subject.

 

After reading, I tend toward the view that the strapless shovel was probably a lightweight comercial design sold during the '20's and '30's maybe (which would account for the genuine signs of age and wear). Since the military shovels were not surplused at that time, but thousands of guys had been exposed to them during their military service, it would make sense to me that a tool manufacturer would try to captalize on the handy and familiar nature of the Army's design and manufacture and sell a copy for actual home and garden use (certainly advertised as just the right size to carry around in your car or for camping). But, definitive evidence to the contrary supporting a US (or other nation's) origin could still turn up, I suppose.

 

Anyways, thanks, again,

Mike

"Hope is not a course of action." Sean P. Kelly, SSG, 1st US Ranger Battalion

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That's a nice collection of shovels Rob. :thumbsup:

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Now the shovel with clearly welded support is still a mystery and that shovel's origins is still a mystery. I have compared that shovel to an unsupported one and both shovels are completely different. That means the welded reinforcement shovel was not originally one of the unsupported ones since the blades and handles plus hardware do not match in any way.

 

Those with welded reinforcement are sometimes called "USMC" shovels but nobody has ever been able to document this. I have one in my collection.....just in case.

 

Greg

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Robert,

 

I'm glad to see that someone else has the e-tool bug as bad as I do. I've had one of those wrap-around supported's for MANY years, and have always thought they were British made. I can't prove it one way or another. But mine is marked with a taller than normal US on the top side of the handle socket. It's in its original finish, with quite a bit of OD paint left.

 

Maybe now I can come out of the closet with my shovels. I'll try to get around to posting them in the near future for comparison.

 

By the way, what's the date and make of the latest T-handle you've all seen or own ?

 

Best regards,

 

Paul Walker

Klamath Falls, Oregon.

I would love to see your E-Tools and others. I have two WWII T-Handles. Both Ames 42 & 43 Robert

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