General officer dress visor - Lt Gen. Hobart R. Gay - Reference

[Jamecharles]

Good day everyone, recently I was lucky enough to get this beautiful visor that is terribly similar to the one I saw on this photo of Lieutenant General Hobart R. Gay.
Now the question is WHY this general was using a so different kind of decorations on his blue dress army general visor?
there was a sort of "different" regulation during 1953 to 1955, maybe experimental phase? (AR about blue dress army uniforms changed just in 1953.

Maybe we could find the answer in his history:

 

In September 1954 General Gay was made commander of U.S. Fifth Army in Chicago, Illinois. He was nominated by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in October 1954 for promotion to Lieutenant General (temporary).

 

Hobart R. Gay's career in the U.S. Army ended in 1955 as the Commanding General, Anti-aircraft and Guided Missile Center, Fort Bliss, Texas.

 

Following retirement, Gay became superintendent of the New Mexico Military Institute. He died in El Paso, Texas, and was interred at the Fort Bliss National Cemetery.

___________________________________________________________

 

So maybe there was a specific regulation for the general officer uniforms assigned to "military institute"?

 

*Note: I am not telling it is his visor but is clearly made in same way

THANKS in advance to anyone can give an help on this

[Jamecharles]

Here further details of the hat

[Jamecharles]

Inside the visor there is a label with this written inside "dix 89.14.8"

Maybe Fort Dix ? Any clue ?

[atb]

That's an old US Army Museum System trinomial catalog number for the old Ft. Dix Museum collection. Item number 8 in the 14th Accession of the Year 1989. What was your source for the cap?

[Jamecharles]

It's a tag inside the hat. Is there any chance to ID this visor based to those infos ?

[Jamecharles]

Here more details

[Dave]

25 minutes ago, Jamecharles said:

Inside the visor there is a label with this written inside "dix 89.14.8"

Maybe Fort Dix ? Any clue ?

 

Those look like numbers for a museum acquisition. I'm assuming "89" might be a year, but the 14.8 could either be a date (not normally written that way in the US) or most likely, some code from the museum indicating the donor and acquisition of the hat. 

[atb]

"249109" is the Museum System Central Control Number (CCN).  That looks like the type of stuffed stockinette support added by the museum.

[Rakkasan187]

His hat may  have been deaccessed some time ago and it went to the auction lot afterwards...

 

Leigh 

[Jamecharles]

the real question still "why this strange decoration for a general officer visor?".

 

[Dave]

It looks like the Fort Dix museum was shut down during BRAC in 2009. It was later resurrected in a different form. I wonder if items were sold at that time? 

The reason I'm thinking along these lines is because it does  have the Army museum numbers on it. Those equate to a database somewhere that lists the item and may likely tell who the hat belonged to. 

[Jamecharles]

Btw, the hat in question was legally purchased on eBay on May 18, 2025, as you can see from this evidence.

If anyone wishes to assert their rights, they should contact the American seller, whom I lawfully paid and on whose sale I paid the applicable taxes, in accordance with Italian and international law.

[KurtA]

35 minutes ago, Jamecharles said:

the real question still "why this strange decoration for a general officer visor?".

 

I theorize that possibly he was unable to obtain a general officer’s dress blue cap with the embroidered oak leaves around the crown.  A good alternative was to use a longer length of general officer dress blue gold bullion cuff trim and replace the existing branch color band on his hat with that. (Is it the same width as standard general officer cuff trim?)
This would differentiate his hat from all lower O1-O6 hats.  
Or, he was frugal and just wanted to save some money.  

[KurtA]

10 minutes ago, Jamecharles said:

Btw, the hat in question was legally purchased on eBay on May 18, 2025, as you can see from this evidence.

If anyone wishes to assert their rights, they should contact the American seller, whom I lawfully paid and on whose sale I paid the applicable taxes, in accordance with Italian and international law.

Well, at least it’s no longer rotting in the bowels of a museum, never to see the light of day again, and is now properly displayed and preserved by a collector who appreciates it.  
One more example of why items should not typically be donated to a museum.  

[Rakkasan187]

Jamescharles,

 

Here is some more information regarding your cap. It was deaccessed and sent to DLA (Defense Logistics Agency in February 2023.  Part of the Army museum reform efforts are to deaccess excess and non-provenanced articles. This appears to have had no provenance and so to make room for items with provenance it was removed. 

 

This is some of the information regarding the hat. It was identified as a Chaplain's hat. 

 

*** INACTIVE [W90W3H-3031-0004(2023)] ***   Cap, Dress, Chaplain, Officer's, US Army, Felt/Gold/Leather, Blue/Gold/Black, US, Circa 1955, Mid-20th Century
CCN: 249109    Catalog No.: DIX 1989.014.008    Registration No.: DIX 1989.014

 

Hope this helps..

 

Leigh 

 

 

[Jamecharles]

11 minutes ago, Rakkasan187 said:

Jamescharles,

 

Here is some more information regarding your cap. It was deaccessed and sent to DLA (Defense Logistics Agency in February 2023.  Part of the Army museum reform efforts are to deaccess excess and non-provenanced articles. This appears to have had no provenance and so to make room for items with provenance it was removed. 

 

This is some of the information regarding the hat. It was identified as a Chaplain's hat. 

 

*** INACTIVE [W90W3H-3031-0004(2023)] ***   Cap, Dress, Chaplain, Officer's, US Army, Felt/Gold/Leather, Blue/Gold/Black, US, Circa 1955, Mid-20th Century
CCN: 249109    Catalog No.: DIX 1989.014.008    Registration No.: DIX 1989.014

 

Hope this helps..

 

Leigh 

 

 

MAZING INFO, description of museum doesn't match with the visor but thanks

[Rakkasan187]

Many of the items in museums have been misidentified and mislabeled over the years. The only source before the world wide web were reference books and in some cases the books were also inaccurate. Been making corrections to misidentified items for years now...

 

Leigh 

[Rakkasan187]

37 minutes ago, KurtA said:

Well, at least it’s no longer rotting in the bowels of a museum, never to see the light of day again, and is now properly displayed and preserved by a collector who appreciates it.  
One more example of why items should not typically be donated to a museum.  

I couldn't agree more Kurt...

 

Leigh 

[atb]

1 hour ago, Jamecharles said:

Btw, the hat in question was legally purchased on eBay on May 18, 2025, as you can see from this evidence.

If anyone wishes to assert their rights, they should contact the American seller, whom I lawfully paid and on whose sale I paid the applicable taxes, in accordance with Italian and international law.

From whom located where?

[atb]

55 minutes ago, Rakkasan187 said:

Jamescharles,

 

Here is some more information regarding your cap. It was deaccessed and sent to DLA (Defense Logistics Agency in February 2023.  Part of the Army museum reform efforts are to deaccess excess and non-provenanced articles. This appears to have had no provenance and so to make room for items with provenance it was removed. 

 

This is some of the information regarding the hat. It was identified as a Chaplain's hat. 

 

*** INACTIVE [W90W3H-3031-0004(2023)] ***   Cap, Dress, Chaplain, Officer's, US Army, Felt/Gold/Leather, Blue/Gold/Black, US, Circa 1955, Mid-20th Century
CCN: 249109    Catalog No.: DIX 1989.014.008    Registration No.: DIX 1989.014

 

Hope this helps..

 

Leigh 

 

 

A typical pre-centralization situation from before more professional standards and procedures were put in place.

 

[Jamecharles]

2 hours ago, KurtA said:

Well, at least it’s no longer rotting in the bowels of a museum, never to see the light of day again, and is now properly displayed and preserved by a collector who appreciates it.  
One more example of why items should not typically be donated to a museum.  

It was cleaned and restored, will be safe for many years since now 🙏 ❤️ 

[Wailuna]

Go to Find-a-Grave memorial # 34160263 for more pictures of Major General Hobart Raymond "Hap" Gay, Sr." and his son.

[CinamonToastCrunch]

It also looks like there is a really small moth hole near the area you mentioned both in the picture and on the visor.

[Ranger-1972]

This is the ONLY image I have ever seen of the visor hat worn with the Special Evening Dress Uniform (Army equivalent of 'white tie & tails'). I have NEVER seen a photo of an officer of any rank wearing that particular hat.

 

Per the 1952 Special Regulation that described the new version of the Special Evening Dress Uniform (different sleeve braid), the cap band for the Special Evening Dress cap differed from that on the Dress Blue cap, in that there was a ¾” gold band at the center rather than the branch color worn on the Dress Blue cap, and there were two ½” dark blue stripes at the top & bottom rather than the gold bands worn on the Dress Blue cap. All officers (other than generals) wore a plain black patent leather visor on that Special Evening Dress cap.  You have the general officer version, with the gold oak leaves on the visor.

 

It was worn for just a few years (1952-1961), when the Army once again allowed officers to wear their normal Blue Dress hat (with branch colors around the base of the cap) with the Special Evening Dress, as well as the Blue Mess Dress and the Blue Dress uniforms.

 

This is the description of that hat from Special Regulations No 600-32-10 (3 Sept 1952):

 

39.  Cap, dress, blue (fig.2).  a. Material - Cloth, wool serge, or 15-ounce fur felt, dark blue, Army shade No. 150.

b. Design

   (1) Crown - Of adopted design about 11 1/4 inches from front to rear and 10 1/2 inches from side to side, based on size 7 1/8, graduated according to sizes, stiffened in front by means of a stay and falling without stiffening to the rear; two eyelets equally spaced between top and bottom welt seam and about 3/4 inches from top of the band.  The top is rolled at rim with a 5/8 inch diameter removable rubber grommet.

    (2) Visor - Of leather, bound with black patent leather 3/16 inch wide and lined with embossed green hatter's leather; greatest width about 2 3/16 inches, and slope from vertical of about 55 degrees.

        (a) General officers - Top of the visor of dark blue cloth embroidered with gold color manipulated thread, in two areas of oak leaves, in groups of two.

        (b) Other officers and warrant officers - Top of visor of plain black patent leather. [this includes field-grade officers, as well as company-grade officers and warrant officers]

    (3) Chin strap - Gold colored, 1/2 inch in width, fastened to cap at end of visor with small regulation cap buttons.

    (4) Band - An outside band on the cap cover of woven braid 1 3/4 inches wide, consisting of a 1/2-inch dark blue stripe, 3/4-inch two-vellum gold color manipulated thread of two-vellum gold bullion stripe and a 1/2-inch dark blue stripe; outside stripes matching the color of the cap material.

 

Special Regulation 600-32-10 (C1) dated 7 Aug 1953 changed the visor so that all field-grade officers once again wore two arcs of oak leaves -- but left the same blue-gold-blue band in place.  

 

This distinctive cap for the Special Evening Dress uniform was apparently discontinued by 1961.  In the photo below, the Army aide to the President is wearing the regular Dress Blue cap with his white-tie uniform at President Kennedy’s inaugural ball in January 1961.

 

If you ever want to dispose of that visor cap, please let me know.

 

 

[Ranger-1972]

It is very unusual to see BG Gay wearing the Special Evening Dress cap -- not with his Special Evening Dress uniform -- but rather with his normal Blue Dress uniform.

 

I've never seen a uniform regulation that prescribed the wear of that hat with the regular Blue Dress uniform.

 

It should be worn with this uniform, instead.  The photo of the Major General wearing the M-1952 Special Evening Dress uniform and officer's cape shows the style of hat that would have been worn from 1961 onwards -- the same design as the hat worn with the Blue Mess and Blue Dress uniforms.