Indianhead 6th Marines WW1

[usmc1981]

I know this has been posted before, but here it is........Picked up this patch, and was wondering if anyone knew anything about textiles that would help determine it color?  What’s your professional opinion on this?  The Indian looks like chief hairy feather. The background is velvet, which I’ve never seen brown before.  I know this sounds out there, but I read a little bit about velvet and that it can absorb the color of other materials connected to it, such as a patch sewn on uniform transferring dye from the woolen uniform.  Early velvet was made of silk and can loose its pigment and or absorb other dyes.  Saying that the patch was sewn to a green uniform for a beginning color. Black (HQ) and green make a darker green.  Blue (3rd BN) with green makes cyan.  Purple (73rd Co.) with green creates brown.  So maybe this background started off as a 73rd company?  Didn't know if you guys had ideas about aging velvet.  Pretty sure this background didn't start off as brown. 

All help is greatly appreciated.

Chris

[usmc1981]

[usmc1981]

AI says “Yes, purple silk can change pigment to brown over time, especially if exposed to sunlight and environmental factors, as the dye fades and breaks down, potentially leaving a brownish hue behind; this is particularly true for older purple silk fabrics where the dye might not be as colorfast. “

[Tennessee]

Interestingly enough, I have a Navy CPO's uniform in my collection that was made in England  during the war, and it has largely turned purple over time, including the vest or waistcoat!  Years ago, I was told that the Germans controlled the analine dye industry at the time of the war, that supply was cut off with the naval blockade!  This circumstance may well have contributed to the decrease in color fastness of some of the dyes at the time of the war. Just a thought!

David

[Blacksmith]

That is gorgeous, Chris - just beautiful.  My 2/5 avatar is on yellow velvet that looks very similar to the construction of yours - though the Indian is quite different, being made from multiple pieces of felt-like material with detail stitched onto it.  

 

I think you have some sound theories on what yours might be - I've also seen some 1/6 examples that looked from maroon to brownish.  It's plausible that it's an HQ/6 that faded.  However, I would expect that the material in the creases would show different from the exposed portions.  Just my guesses.

 

I am eager to see what my brother @warguy thinks.  His knowledge on these far exceeds mine - on many topics.  

    

[warguy]

Hi Chris, I hope you are well buddy. Blacksmith is far too kind to me, and he is far too modest about his own knowledge on just about anything. 

 

Here is my opinions on your patch for whatever they may be worth. You know what they say about opinions, and bellybuttons and other parts of our anatomy. So for whatever it may be worth I think:

 

1.) Your patch is absolutely period original. I like everything about it, the design, construction, etc. 

2.) As you have already indicated, no way that patch was ever produced in brown.

3.) I also agree with your assessment about the materials and how these early velvet patches were made and most importantly why that made them prone to changing color.

4.) Personally, I am not there on the transfer of color idea, where the green wool uniform would transfer green dye into the patch. I say that simply because I have never seen evidence of any transfer from that might be attributed from the uniform into the patch. I have a number of green tunics with velvet patches, and just once again, I just have never seen any evidence of that on any of those (or others) including the lighter colored patches like the yellow ones.

5.) In my opinion, I believe your patch was a black HQ originally. I think the material these were made from results in a color dye failure that is different than you may see from a patch that has “faded” over the years from UV and or sunlight. On patches that have faded from UV, you will definitely see the dark er or original color where the sun or light has not hit the patch. With dye failure, I think you see the color loss in a much more consistent way, and I suspect that is exactly what you are seeing here. 

6.) What I cannot tell you is why has this patch turned brown when the majority of others have not? The answer I think will lie in either the material composition of this patch  and or the environmental conditions. Perhaps this velvet was German, or French, and a cheaper bolt of velvet was used by this specific cottage tailor? Maybe the environmental conditions it was stored in during the  past century was very humid, or very hot and dry,  or maybe it was kept near the ocean with a high level of salt, or maybe….(fill in the blank). 

 

So anyway, thats my thoughts on this one, which with $12.50, might buy you a cup of coffee. Good luck!

[warguy]

I’ll add for what it is worth that I would NOT bet strongly against this once being purple either. Purple or black I would say. 

[usmc1981]

 @Blacksmith  @warguy

The you both for your responses.

 

There could be a multitude of factors which changed the color of the velvet by environmental conditions of which we don’t know over the past century, and I agree the color transfer was farfetched, but did create a scenario that explained a color change.  (Over the years, I’ve never seen an example that would support the suggestion of color change by transfer of the tunic color to the velvet patch.)

 

When light hits the velvet pile, it can appear lighter because the direction of the fibers, "nap," reflects light differently depending on which way the pile is facing.  Reviewing these thoughts and reading more, it’s a greater probity of dye failure which created a change of the “nap” side color more so than the darker reverse side (Black) which would lead credence to it most likely being created originally as a HQ company patch.

 

When it arrives, I’ll take a look under the flap on the rear for any more clues.

Chris

[Blacksmith]

Thank you, Chris - A thought occurred to me later last night, that - if it was on a uniform at one point - maybe laundering could have played a factor as well.

 

It's a great example, no matter what.

[usmc1981]

Just now, Blacksmith said:

Thank you, Chris - A thought occurred to me later last night, that - if it was on a uniform at one point - maybe laundering could have played a factor as well.

 

It's a great example, no matter what.

True statement Blacksmith

Chris

[warguy]

34 minutes ago, usmc1981 said:

 @Blacksmith  @warguy

The you both for your responses.

 

There could be a multitude of factors which changed the color of the velvet by environmental conditions of which we don’t know over the past century, and I agree the color transfer was farfetched, but did create a scenario that explained a color change.  (Over the years, I’ve never seen an example that would support the suggestion of color change by transfer of the tunic color to the velvet patch.)

 

When light hits the velvet pile, it can appear lighter because the direction of the fibers, "nap," reflects light differently depending on which way the pile is facing.  Reviewing these thoughts and reading more, it’s a greater probity of dye failure which created a change of the “nap” side color more so than the darker reverse side (Black) which would lead credence to it most likely being created originally as a HQ company patch.

 

When it arrives, I’ll take a look under the flap on the rear for any more clues.

Chris

Good luck again Chris. I think this is all an exercise in probability really, and there are likely several possibilities. I like this kind of detective work myself, and look forward to hearing from you on any more clues once it is in hand. This has been an interesting thread, and I am glad to be a part of a forum of dedicated historians who are interested in studying the small details of these historical artifacts. 

[usmc1981]

@world war I nerd 

Hey Brian, are you still around?  Haven't seen you post in awhile.

Chris

[usmc1981]

32 minutes ago, warguy said:

Good luck again Chris. I think this is all an exercise in probability really, and there are likely several possibilities. I like this kind of detective work myself, and look forward to hearing from you on any more clues once it is in hand. This has been an interesting thread, and I am glad to be a part of a forum of dedicated historians who are interested in studying the small details of these historical artifacts. 

Thanks Warguy!

[Blacksmith]

13 minutes ago, usmc1981 said:

@world war I nerd 

Hey Brian, are you still around?  Haven't seen you post in awhile.

Chris

 

Per his profile page, his last visit was July of 2022.

[usmc1981]

44 minutes ago, Blacksmith said:

 

Per his profile page, his last visit was July of 2022.

Blacksmith I see that now, I wonder what happened to Brian?  

[AustinO]

Last time I talked to Brian he was doing some primary care provider work for a relative in decline.  I'm assuming "life" has taken priority over collecting/researching at least for the time being. 

[usmc1981]

6 minutes ago, AustinO said:

Last time I talked to Brian he was doing some primary care provider work for a relative in decline.  I'm assuming "life" has taken priority over collecting/researching at least for the time being. 

Thanks AustinO, appreciate the feedback. 

[Airborne-Hunter]

In agreement black or purple, possibly dark green, but almost certainly black. Black dyes in the old days had a hard time holding their color overtime and turned brown. This is a natural dye that has aged poorly. I have seen similar effects in Victorian clothing and original fabric Victorian (and other era) furniture. We must remember this is 100+ years old, made of materials that were made using likely even older methods. Please remember Germany was an impoverished, economically collapsed Country at the end of the war. Materials were in short supply, especially modern ones. Home "brews" fit the bill. For argument's sake, France wasn't much better. And in theory this patch, while likely considered German made could have been made anywhere over there with materials from furthermore anywhere. The Americans were buying and the color needed to work, if even only for a few weeks. They made due.

In theory a spectrum analysis would solve this right away, but at what cost and effort? 

This was not made to last and even if it was, the materials of the time only could go so far. This patch should be held up for its extreme characteristics of an original. 

[usmc1981]

15 minutes ago, Airborne-Hunter said:

In agreement black or purple, possibly dark green, but almost certainly black. Black dyes in the old days had a hard time holding their color overtime and turned brown. This is a natural dye that has aged poorly. I have seen similar effects in Victorian clothing and original fabric Victorian (and other era) furniture. We must remember this is 100+ years old, made of materials that were made using likely even older methods. Please remember Germany was an impoverished, economically collapsed Country at the end of the war. Materials were in short supply, especially modern ones. Home "brews" fit the bill. For argument's sake, France wasn't much better. And in theory this patch, while likely considered German made could have been made anywhere over there with materials from furthermore anywhere. The Americans were buying and the color needed to work, if even only for a few weeks. They made due.

In theory a spectrum analysis would solve this right away, but at what cost and effort? 

This was not made to last and even if it was, the materials of the time only could go so far. This patch should be held up for its extreme characteristics of an original. 

Thank you Airborne-Hunter

[usmc1981]

Received in hand today, and I guess it looks a little darker and splotchy where the dye has aged. On the front there’s several spots where the nap is worn down and you can see black.  Also on the reverse edge of the patch border where you can see the fibers woven, they seem to be holding black dye. I’m not 100% but probably 95% sure this is a HQ Company, 6th Marines Patch.  

[usmc1981]

[usmc1981]

You can also see the hand stitching marks where it was uniform removed at one time. 

[warguy]

I like it and I agree with you! Thanks again for sharing it with the forum.