Jump to content
Navy Dan

WW I USN AMM wing help with maker?

Recommended Posts

Hello Everyone,

I'm looking for help identifying the maker on this wing.The photos of the grouping I'm going to acquirer is in the latest finds section.

He was a AMM 2C and flew in seaplanes.

Here are the pics of the wing.

Thanks Dan

post-2552-1239213960.jpg

post-2552-1239213970.jpg

post-2552-1239213982.jpg


donation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, absolutely gorgeous wing. I wish I could tell you for sure who made it but I can't say for certain. I can say that I've seen that type of roll clasp on Tiffany and B, B & B wings but I'm not sure if other manufacturers might have used it as well. Joe might be able to provide more insight since he has a jeweler's knowledge of clasps and pins. Fabulous grouping as well. As a fellow naval aviation buff all I can do is drool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The clasp was made by Tiffany and it was sold to others so that will not help. You want to carefully look at the edge of the shield to see if is a cut down. If real their will be a die strike line down the center on the edge. If possible a close up photo of the edge.

 

Joe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.... carefully look at the edge of the shield to see if is a cut down. If real their will be a die strike line down the center on the edge.

Joe

 

Dan - believe this what joe refers to as a strike line on the edge. s/f Darrell

 

 

pasquale_service_collars_1904_023.jpg

 

pasquale_service_collars_1904_034.jpg



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will try and get a photo of the edge if memory serves me it was the same all the way around.But the photo will tell.

Thanks Dan


donation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One other note on the die strike marks. The example Darrell posted are textbook things to look for in a die struck wing. However some of the high end manufacturers (Blackinton, Luxenburg, B,B&B, etc) sometimes finished their wings and smoothed out these marks so they aren't as pronounced as the example Darrell posted. Of course some of the fakers do this as well to hide the fact that they were never there in the first place. Both of the balloon wings on my site (see here) do not display these fine marks. The wings have been finished on all sides so you don't see them that clearly. However both of these are authentic wings. One other thing I look for to determine if it's a cut down wing or not is the uniformity of the shield width and the uniformity of the side of the shield that does not have the wing. In a cut down wing you often times see a curvature to the side of the shield as the person who cut down the wing tries to file off any remaining marks from the removal of the wing. They also sometimes file too deep and throw off the uniformity of the thickness of the shield on all sides as viewed from the front. From what I can see from the pictures you posted your wing looks like a good one to me. And I haven't seen a lot of good ones over the years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like a cut down to me. Those are saw marks and not die marks. If they were true die marks the cut would not be exactly the same from one side to the other. Don't forget a die cut is actually two cuts, one from the top and the other from the bottom. It was very common to cut down wings during that era.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Looks like a cut down to me. Those are saw marks and not die marks. If they were true die marks the cut would not be exactly the same from one side to the other. Don't forget a die cut is actually two cuts, one from the top and the other from the bottom. It was very common to cut down wings during that era.

 

Joe - Post#4 pics are that of a an EGA Darrell posted to show "marks". We haven't seen the edge of Dan's wing yet. It sure looks good to me so far!

Bob


donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif
donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif
"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (Message sent by 1st Lt. Clifton B. Cates. USMC, 96th Co., Soissons, 19 July 1918 - later 19th Commandant of the Marine Corps 1948-1952)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Everyone,

I finally got pics of the side of the wing and the top.Here they are opinions please.

Thanks Dan

post-2552-1239743711.jpg

post-2552-1239743719.jpg


donation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Everyone,

I finally got pics of the side of the wing and the top.Here they are opinions please.

Thanks Dan

 

Doesnt look like a cut down wing to me.


!!!! WANTED !!!!

WWII Prisoner of War items : Medals, Mail, Diaries, Photos, Documents, Scrapbooks + More

WWII Naval Aviation Groupings : Medals, Documents, Scrapbooks, Photos, Flight Logs, Flight Jackets + More

 


donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd buy it! looks good to me too

 

DJ


"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks,

I'm still waiting to make the acquisition there are more items turning up they have found and small photo album with more WW I photos of him in uniform and his college photos and then when he joined the Kansas National guard as an officer wearing his pistol and you can see the different grips that he has on them. Once I have it all together I will post more photos.

thanks

Dan


donation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks,

I'm still waiting to make the acquisition there are more items turning up they have found and small photo album with more WW I photos of him in uniform and his college photos and then when he joined the Kansas National guard as an officer wearing his pistol and you can see the different grips that he has on them. Once I have it all together I will post more photos.

thanks

Dan

 

I for one am looking forward to see more!

 

John


Always looking for Wings & Named Air Medals!

Motto: To Collect, Preserve, and Remember!

 

 

 

 

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Everyone,

I finally got pics of the side of the wing and the top.Here they are opinions please.

Thanks Dan

 

Dan - agree w/ others, its a good one for sure - pic's don't lie thumbsup.gif



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cut- down for sure.

 

Look at the picture of the top side view and you will see the die cut. Now look at the side of the shield and notice how smooth, it was cut down and then smoothed out with a finish. Also the anchor shows a die cut.

 

Joe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could not possibly disagree more! The finish is the same and the die marks are the same. This wing (as best as can be seen on these photos) show absolutely NO signs of a cut-down wing. The statement "Cut-down for sure" is totally uncalled for and not even supported by the photos!

 

1) the finish is the same all the way around the wing. In a cut down wing, the part where the missing metal used to be would not have the same finish. Clearly, the finish on this wing is original and has never been touched or redone. This is a good honest finish with appropriate patina and wear.

 

2) You can actually see the die strike indications (small lines that run perpendicular to the edges0 that go all the way around the top and sides of the wings, and along ALL the edges. In a cut down wing, these striations would stop where the metal was cut off.

 

3) At the risk of being excessively obvious, I would ask that people first direct their attention to how the extant wing is attached to the shield in this badge. The wing extends from just below the top edge of the shield to about 1/2 way down the side of the shield and actually incorporates the top 1/3 of the tip of the anchor fluke. A reasonable person could conclude that the missing wing would (if this were a cut down wing) been identical to its mate on the other side.

 

Thus, "cutting down" the wing would mean that at least 1/2 of the shield on the missing side would have to be smooth and 1/3 of the tip of the anchor would be smooth (and likley show some signs of saw work, excess metal, or lopsided cuts. You can clearly see that the part of the shield (if the wing were a cutdown) has the same pattern to striations as the part of the shield BELOW where the wing would have been cut off (if the wing were a cut down), thereby indicating that nothing was actually cut off.

 

4) The same is true of the anchor tip, which also doesn't have any change in the striation pattern from an area where it would overlap the wing compared to an area where it would be free standing. For example, look closely at the anchor fluke. The tip has the SAME pattern of striations and the bit below the tip of the fluke. However, the tip of the fluke, if this were a cutdown wing, would lack those striations. Since the striations are there, it indicates that the wing was die struck as a 1/2 wing.

 

5) Dan actually has a vintage photo of the guy WEARING the wing!

 

In a forum dedicated to the enjoyment of wings and civil discourse of wings why the only thing that can be added by some members is a rude and unsupported attack on someone else's stuff is beyond me?

 

Patrick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clearly one can observe the die strike line - especially the lower half of the shield where it intersects the anchor arms. More over the striation lines from the cut are distinct and random in position along the shield - pic's don't lie!

 

post_2552_1239743711.jpg



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentleman there is one thing for certain we are all entitled to our opinions here and I for one like to have more opinions vs. less. With that said the format of a forum does not always allow for a person opinion to be conveyed correctly and can sometime be misconstrued.

 

Please let us stick to the facts at hand i.e. the photos and keep the discourse focused and attempt to take any emotions out of your comments.

 

Now with that said the die strike marks evident on the top edge of the wing do not match those on the side of the shield but do match those on the anchor. This for me does not tip the scales one way or the other... what does tip the scales for me is the consistency of the finish which looks good to me.

 

From reading the comments that first suggested the "cut down" I do not see that this means they are not in fact period wings but that they could have started life with two wings then altered to one. Why? Good question... maker did not have the die for this wing so altered them as needed... maybe taken to a jeweler becuase the required wing was not available.

 

Either way I do not see anyone one saying this is a bad wing... I think Dennis summed this up for me...

 

I'd buy it! looks good to me too

 

Regards,

John


Always looking for Wings & Named Air Medals!

Motto: To Collect, Preserve, and Remember!

 

 

 

 

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to everyone for there comments .For me there is no doubt it is authentic with the amount of memorabilia that this gentleman saved from WW I. Hopefully it will all come together soon and I will post it.

Thanks for the support and knowledge

Dan


donation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks to everyone for there comments .For me there is no doubt it is authentic with the amount of memorabilia that this gentleman saved from WW I. Hopefully it will all come together soon and I will post it.

Thanks for the support and knowledge

Dan

 

Dan, Too much splitting hairs on this one. Get all the stuff................ put it in a box, and send it to me. It'll look damn nice next to the enlisted Navy aviation groups in my collection. Very nice!!

 

Best, Dennis


"RETREAT HELL.....WE JUST GOT HERE"

 

LOOKING TO PURCHASE IDENTIFIED WW1 AVIATION GROUPINGS, INCLUDING MEDALS, UNIFORMS, STUDIO PHOTOS.

PURCHASE ANY AND ALL ID'ED WW1 NAVY CORPSMAN OR PHYSICIAN GROUPINGS; MEDALS &/or UNIFORMS.

WW1 USMC ID'ED OFFICER'S GROUPS, esp. MARINE AVIATORS -

ANY LARGE FORMAT 5X7 OR LARGER IMAGES OF MARINE OFFICERS & AERO PILOTS

 

 

Collecting/Preserving/Researching WW1 Marine Corps Items and WW1 Aviation Items

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stand by my statement that these were cut down. Nothing wrong with that. Don't forget back then many of the manufacturers cut down Navy wings, it was cheaper to cut down the few that were needed than to make a die. You will find most real BB&B 1/2 wings were cut down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just an opinion from an artist that makes among other things, custom silver jewelry. I do not see any evidence of saw work. A die stamp will not always be baby butt smooth. That depends on the die maker. The verticle lines that you see are not saw blade marks, much to uniform for that.

The finish of the metal is consistant for overall wear.

And No I Do Not do repair work. The time spent doing repair work would not come close to what I get for the time spent creating custom art jewelry.

Like I said just another opinion.

Steve


This DAY of FREEDOM brought to you by current Military Personnel and Veterans.

! HAVE A NICE DAY !

 

donation2008.gifdonation2009.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.