An interesting mid 1930s G.O. dress visor, bullion and gold velvet

[Jamecharles]

Good day everybody, I added to my collection of GO dress uniforms and accessories this beauty.

This is a unique piece I guess, never saw a mid 1930s dress GO visor with gold velvet band around the crown, btw it would be easier to spot it in some original photos of that period.

Any info about his owner please wrote here below!

 

PS: those kind of not conventional habit reminds me the gold lined cape of GO Pershing

 

GS

 

 

[6th.MG.BN]

Thats a looker.

Ken

[QED4]

This is just a guess but the Chief of Infantry, Artillery, and Cavalry did not wear the usual generals black velvet facings but rather their branch color, This may be the hat worn by the Chief of Cavalry. They also had the branch color in their shoulder straps.    

[Jamecharles]

Hello @QED4, your guess is interesting and would open a world!
BTW I am pretty sure there were no specific regulation regarding the "Chiefs" of each branch to keep the color of their branch, the AR since 1936 to 1940s regulated the army G.O. dress uniforms, accessories and visors in same way, the differences we can see in original photos, or on uniforms we found, were personal habits I suppose.

Maybe previous regulations were different regarding chief GOs?

GS

 

[Justin B.]

Hello Giancarlo! It is hard to judge colors from photos, so forgive me if this is a dumb question: Could it be Quartermaster buff rather than gold? That would be an authorized variation.

 

On 9/5/2024 at 7:07 AM, QED4 said:

This is just a guess but the Chief of Infantry, Artillery, and Cavalry did not wear the usual generals black velvet facings but rather their branch color, This may be the hat worn by the Chief of Cavalry. They also had the branch color in their shoulder straps.    

The QMG and the Chief of Artillery, later Coast Artillery, had branch colored bands on the dress cap, all other GOs used the "blue-black" velvet. QM and Engineers officers also had variations on the M.1902 full dress coat.

The pre-WW1 blue dress uniforms were re-authorized as optional for officers in 1929, but the caps had to be updated to the current pattern. Which is how you get something like this:

[Father V]

I see this is an attempt to make the US visor cap more French. The oak & acorn is pretty iconic and I don’t think the French used vellum patterns like the Royal Navy. 
 

French navy visor cap M1836 https://mnm.webmuseo.com/ws/musee-national-marine/app/collection/record/9850?vc=ePkH4LF7jVbBbtswDP0V_8GAAsXOWdphGxasGNZdC8VmHBaypIlSlv79HmVZcZsedghCPtEUJVLkuxpPN7dIeTvHugpvPt7WQfifJfPh-tZWmWkvJvPQTTSw6Qb_11lvBnWmoX5HTmHWH2lHkTqXJ4r-qztV6Y6CT1X-xORU70xOkdCzFBStip6DZUeQPbowhLvd5875CW3Rlr6PoTIQAHYmsXd4mQOdn9aQdCYEsna9vkLgmoTH2fY3HJq-OWm41IXEGh8CSIjkstyRE5p0LIzR5wCLPlL1PvsqOuW46NR7S4timfJ5W7-o2Eh-jCYcmb7gHn1kVFAzoRM5wh2khpSIfpKxLHXfESZCzVtR_P6ZkmxEfM_Y_aief1A-IT2SXuxiPcsBBIoFvjBh5k20tUUORZ4AIa1yn35Rf3Qa3nKcZamq6bIuOQQUp5SKyZP-S1bLyUQ1uAeTaFvIJYJXqEdqDdoFPuiMM_YFRUwwFdzHHCdOG_U2XoFky429hdsesnnX14C0vYEErKq_8i-caOutpR6EwBwOfMYLoNwgu1b6KmhBTJSOaIVt7RJRg3LiJbH1UleIvIGK0_khKTeQx9XHrXAerzyWIryG36vDtdUl2jWKGdtKUTltykm-5cjDXAfa-jf9n4wPi8VJeZiGPaAJiAH1CREF3dfn61CtGLiyCQHsmBwA7QjRc5Kdjyafq_JgUmSwYFZoHcMDxck4nBupETTMBOZHEZSKAY0RqZtfEBqeRtshNPw8dz53e95bRjcCJfBzvKjBvSjlrP2DD4cs5coGffj0hDD1jHxQaSEVWyM4fEqF4bVh8g9d1EBC

—-

French Admiral M1861 https://mnm.webmuseo.com/ws/musee-national-marine/app/collection/record/9856?vc=ePkH4LF7jVbBbtswDP0V_8GAAsXOWdphGxasGNZdC8VmHBaypIlSlv79HmVZcZsedghCPtEUJVLkuxpPN7dIeTvHugpvPt7WQfifJfPh-tZWmWkvJvPQTTSw6Qb_11lvBnWmoX5HTmHWH2lHkTqXJ4r-qztV6Y6CT1X-xORU70xOkdCzFBStip6DZUeQPbowhLvd5875CW3Rlr6PoTIQAHYmsXd4mQOdn9aQdCYEsna9vkLgmoTH2fY3HJq-OWm41IXEGh8CSIjkstyRE5p0LIzR5wCLPlL1PvsqOuW46NR7S4timfJ5W7-o2Eh-jCYcmb7gHn1kVFAzoRM5wh2khpSIfpKxLHXfESZCzVtR_P6ZkmxEfM_Y_aief1A-IT2SXuxiPcsBBIoFvjBh5k20tUUORZ4AIa1yn35Rf3Qa3nKcZamq6bIuOQQUp5SKyZP-S1bLyUQ1uAeTaFvIJYJXqEdqDdoFPuiMM_YFRUwwFdzHHCdOG_U2XoFky429hdsesnnX14C0vYEErKq_8i-caOutpR6EwBwOfMYLoNwgu1b6KmhBTJSOaIVt7RJRg3LiJbH1UleIvIGK0_khKTeQx9XHrXAerzyWIryG36vDtdUl2jWKGdtKUTltykm-5cjDXAfa-jf9n4wPi8VJeZiGPaAJiAH1CREF3dfn61CtGLiyCQHsmBwA7QjRc5Kdjyafq_JgUmSwYFZoHcMDxck4nBupETTMBOZHEZSKAY0RqZtfEBqeRtshNPw8dz53e95bRjcCJfBzvKjBvSjlrP2DD4cs5coGffj0hDD1jHxQaSEVWyM4fEqF4bVh8g9d1EBC

 

Here’s an Admiral M1831after the time period of WWI 

https://mnm.webmuseo.com/ws/musee-national-marine/app/collection/record/9523?vc=ePkH4LF7jVbBbtswDP0V_8GAAsXOWdphGxasGNZdC8VmHBaypIlSlv79HmVZcZsedghCPtEUJVLkuxpPN7dIeTvHugpvPt7WQfifJfPh-tZWmWkvJvPQTTSw6Qb_11lvBnWmoX5HTmHWH2lHkTqXJ4r-qztV6Y6CT1X-xORU70xOkdCzFBStip6DZUeQPbowhLvd5875CW3Rlr6PoTIQAHYmsXd4mQOdn9aQdCYEsna9vkLgmoTH2fY3HJq-OWm41IXEGh8CSIjkstyRE5p0LIzR5wCLPlL1PvsqOuW46NR7S4timfJ5W7-o2Eh-jCYcmb7gHn1kVFAzoRM5wh2khpSIfpKxLHXfESZCzVtR_P6ZkmxEfM_Y_aief1A-IT2SXuxiPcsBBIoFvjBh5k20tUUORZ4AIa1yn35Rf3Qa3nKcZamq6bIuOQQUp5SKyZP-S1bLyUQ1uAeTaFvIJYJXqEdqDdoFPuiMM_YFRUwwFdzHHCdOG_U2XoFky429hdsesnnX14C0vYEErKq_8i-caOutpR6EwBwOfMYLoNwgu1b6KmhBTJSOaIVt7RJRg3LiJbH1UleIvIGK0_khKTeQx9XHrXAerzyWIryG36vDtdUl2jWKGdtKUTltykm-5cjDXAfa-jf9n4wPi8VJeZiGPaAJiAH1CREF3dfn61CtGLiyCQHsmBwA7QjRc5Kdjyafq_JgUmSwYFZoHcMDxck4nBupETTMBOZHEZSKAY0RqZtfEBqeRtshNPw8dz53e95bRjcCJfBzvKjBvSjlrP2DD4cs5coGffj0hDD1jHxQaSEVWyM4fEqF4bVh8g9d1EBC

 

You can see the blending of the two traditions.

[Jamecharles]

On 9/5/2024 at 3:07 PM, QED4 said:

This is just a guess but the Chief of Infantry, Artillery, and Cavalry did not wear the usual generals black velvet facings but rather their branch color, This may be the hat worn by the Chief of Cavalry. They also had the branch color in their shoulder straps.    

 

22 hours ago, Justin B. said:

Hello Giancarlo! It is hard to judge colors from photos, so forgive me if this is a dumb question: Could it be Quartermaster buff rather than gold? That would be an authorized variation.

 

The QMG and the Chief of Artillery, later Coast Artillery, had branch colored bands on the dress cap, all other GOs used the "blue-black" velvet. QM and Engineers officers also had variations on the M.1902 full dress coat.

The pre-WW1 blue dress uniforms were re-authorized as optional for officers in 1929, but the caps had to be updated to the current pattern. Which is how you get something like this:

 @Justin B. you are right, is not easy understand by  a photo. I could try to take 2 different shoots one near buff wool and another near the yellow wool so we can define the best matches. Regarding datation I quote what you said before: it's a 1930s pattern!
I will post photos asap.

GS

[Jamecharles]

Ok I compared the velvet on the visor to the QMD wool cape lining and trousers.

Looks more similar to the buff color than the yellow of cavalry, but shade remind me something gilt..  maybe is the shining effect of the velvet material (?).

It's hard to define, in some photos looks gilt in other buff...

Btw here the photos.

@Justin B. Waiting your clue 

[Justin B.]

It's so nice that you have a dress blues museum there for all these great comparison photos!
 

It looks very close to me. As you say, velvet has different light-reflecting properties. But you're the judge, if you have it in hand and it looks close enough I'd say you're safe to say a QM cap. It would be convenient for it to be an authorized variation, not a mystery!
 

The buff velvet cap band was not for any GO of the Quartermaster, but the Quartermaster General himself (regulation), so probably only a half dozen or so possible owners.

Thanks again for the post!

[Major Z]

It's seriously cool! I'm glad you were able to acquire it. I agree it is Quartermaster related. The buff fabric used at the beginning of the 20th century was a lighter shade than what we use today. Enjoy it!

[Jamecharles]

Thanks everyone for support and help.
I hope someone can give an help in find out some photos of those following generals in blue dress:
 

Major General John De Witt 1930-1934 
Major General Louis Bash 1934-1936
Major General Henry Gibbins 1936-1940

Maybe one of them have the visor I posted!

GS

[mklyx]

The 1917 uniform specs allows BG of QM Corps to have the buff band too on their dress caps.

 

https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcmassbookdig.specificationsfo02unit/?st=gallery  Page 11, 9 (b)

 

On 9/10/2024 at 7:39 AM, Jamecharles said:

Thanks everyone for support and help.
I hope someone can give an help in find out some photos of those following generals in blue dress:
 

Major General John De Witt 1930-1934 
Major General Louis Bash 1934-1936
Major General Henry Gibbins 1936-1940

Maybe one of them have the visor I posted!

GS

 

 

[Justin B.]

10 hours ago, mklyx said:

The 1917 uniform specs allows BG of QM Corps to have the buff band too on their dress caps.

 

https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcmassbookdig.specificationsfo02unit/?st=gallery  Page 11, 9 (b)

 

 

 

Thank you for catching that, I thought I was looking at the 1917 version but it was in fact 1912.
 

This does increase the number of possibilities:
 

• Bash, Louis H.
• Cheatham, B. Frank
• DeWitt, John L.
• Gibbins, Henry
• Gibson, William R.
• Guiney, Patrick W.
• Horton, Wiliam E.
• Jordan, Richard H.
• Pope, Francis H.
• Rethers, Harry F.
• Seaman, A. Owen
• Warfield, Augustus B.
• Whitehead, Henry C.
• Williams, Alexander E.

And there is the possibility that an officer on the retired list might have had a blue dress uniform in that period, too.

[Jamecharles]

Thanks alot to everyone ! Unfortunatelly is terrible hard spot out a photo of one of them with blue dress uniform...
I will keep searching :D

GS

[Jamecharles]

Ok now I have a clearer idea about the visor: I spotted photos of generals of qmd using full dress with buff velvet on collar until 1930s 

This visor was clearly made in mid 30s so probably used until early 40s, point is finding the general who decided to doing this singularity. Here below a photo of maj. Gen. James B. Aleshire in 1920s with his fulldress and buff velvet collar.

The visor could be a reminiscence of the habit or regulation of that period.

Any help will be truly appreciated

[Justin B.]

Yes, the last regulations on the blue uniform before WW1 were Special Regulation No. 42, Specifications for the Uniform of the United States Army, 1917. The optional blue dress uniforms authorized in 1929 were effectively frozen at that time, except that the pattern of the cap was updated. The buff cuffs and piping for all QMC officers and the embroidered buff velvet collar for general officers had been adopted in 1911, as well as the buff cap band for the Quartermaster General. In the 1915 update, all QMC general officers were authorized the buff cap band.

I don't think that Aleshire photo is from the '20s, the buttons are for a brigadier general but he was promoted to major general in 1912.

[KurtA]

15 hours ago, Justin B. said:

I don't think that Aleshire photo is from the '20s, the buttons are for a brigadier general but he was promoted to major general in 1912.

Agree. Being the Indian War Campaign Medal came out in 1907, and he is a Brig General in this photo, this photo must have been taken between 1907 and 1912.  

Also, if taken after WW1, he would also be wearing a WW1 Victory Medal  (he came out of retirement) and his Indian War medal would have the 2nd ribbon (black stripes)  which was changed during WW1.  
And, as previously mentioned, his buttons would be in groups of 3, indicating a major general 
 

 

[Justin B.]

Looking into this a little further: In 1912 the Quartermaster, Pay and Subsistence departments were combined into a Quartermaster Corps. Each had previously had only one general officer, the brigadier general in charge. In the new organization, there would be a major general with the title "Chief of the Quartermaster Corps," which post went to QMG Aleshire. The former Paymaster General and Commissary General became BGs in the QMC under him. The title of Quartermaster General was restored in 1914. So this may help explain why the QM full dress enhancements were originally specified for the Quartermaster General alone and later for all QM Corps GOs.

[mklyx]

Great news folks! I was able to obtain a photo proof of the quartermaster general dress cap.

 

Based on this photo from LOC:
https://www.loc.gov/item/2014704236/

Carroll Augustine Devol (1859-1930), then Quartermaster General, is wearing the full dress cap with the buff colored band!

 

This corresponds to the specs mentioned starting by the 1912 army uniform specifications

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Specifications_for_the_Uniform_of_the_Un/J2ZNACRR7uUC?hl=en

 

Quote

(Page 8)

(b) Quartermaster General.—Same as "General officers" (par. 9 (a), p. 7), except as to band, which will be of buff cloth or velvet.

 

[Jamecharles]

THAT'S AN AMAZING EVIDENCE! GREAT!!!
Thanks alot, so now we can tell this one was probably used by a major Gen. of QMD between mid to late 30s!!!
GS

[Jamecharles]

Due to the shape and pattern of the visor it should be made between 1930 to late 30s could be ID to one of those 3 MG of QMD
MG John L. DeWitt    February 3, 1930    February 3, 1934    4 years, 0 days    
MG Louis H. Bash    February 3, 1934    March 31, 1936    2 years, 57 days    
MG Henry Gibbins    April 1, 1936    March 31, 1940    3 years, 365 days

If you have any suggestion or more infos, please keep posting!
Thanks

GS

[Jamecharles]

here three photos of the generals

Btw size of the visor is 7 1/8, so not too small for the era, looking to the photos of those 3 generals the first one, MG John L. DeWitt, seems more skinny than the other 2, so probably it was used by one of them.

But this is just a speculation

[Justin B.]

The cap could also be for a brigadier general, see post from 29 Sept 2024 above.

[Jamecharles]

7 minutes ago, Justin B. said:

The cap could also be for a brigadier general, see post from 29 Sept 2024 above.

Oh gosh you are right...