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From the September 1910 article in the “Infantry Journal” describing the deliberations of the Infantry board. This part describes the old “M1908” cartridge belt's deficiencies. I have also seen these belts called M1907 and M1909 in various government publications of the time.

 

Tim

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From the September 1910 article in the “Infantry Journal” describing the deliberations of the Infantry board. This part describes the old “M1908” cartridge belt's deficiencies. I have also seen these belts called M1907 and M1909 in various government publications of the time.

 

Tim

 

Thanks Tim, I have also seen the belt referred to other model years than 1903. The very last paragraph in the article you posted answers why the clips are a hard fit in the pockets.

Frankie G.

 

Check out my US World War I Site,

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I am a bit curious about the two colors of these belts too. Somewhere I think I have read that soldiers were provided with two colors of web gear -- to match the two shades of uniforms -- drab wool and khaki cotton. That seems unlikely to me, but that is what I recall. Certainly after 1909 when the drab cotton coats were adopted, this would no longer have been a problem.

 

Are there photos of soldiers wearing the light khaki webgear with drab uniforms and vice versa? Or was all webgear khaki early on and drab later -- either made that way or redyed?

 

G


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Most all my WWI reference books show dark drab uniforms with khaki webgear. My computor right now won't find my scanner so until I find out the problem I can't post a picture. I will try getting one taken with my camera and see if that works. I'm sure other members will be jumping in with pictures. Robert

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I am a bit curious about the two colors of these belts too. Somewhere I think I have read that soldiers were provided with two colors of web gear -- to match the two shades of uniforms -- drab wool and khaki cotton. That seems unlikely to me, but that is what I recall. Certainly after 1909 when the drab cotton coats were adopted, this would no longer have been a problem.

 

Are there photos of soldiers wearing the light khaki webgear with drab uniforms and vice versa? Or was all webgear khaki early on and drab later -- either made that way or redyed?

 

G

 

WWI Nerd may add on this, he's knows more about that than I do.

 

Here's a photo of soldiers wearing OD wool uniforms with khaki accouterments. I think this is from Charlie Flick's collection.

 

It's seems that the gear was made khaki through 1908/1909 and from then on in OD. Surviving examples show no evidence of re-dye.

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Frankie G.

 

Check out my US World War I Site,

http://www.aef-doughboys.com

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Last night I thought about the puckered pockets on the Mills belts- again...

 

In the mid 1890's Mills manufactured a belt for the 6mm Remington- Lee magazine rifle. The belt had the standard loops for single rounds and also four pockets for the rifle's magazines. I scoured the internet and found some photos of the belt with pockets. These look puckered to me, almost like those on the 1st pattern M1903 Mills Cartridge belt.

 

So maybe there never was a smooth pocket Mills cartridge belt as the puckering just seems to be how Mills made the woven pockets.

 

Any opinions on this?

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Frankie G.

 

Check out my US World War I Site,

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  • 4 weeks later...

Mike, aka US Victory Museum had PM'd me about the Russell belt he just posted. It's hard to read the date on the belt but I believe it's 1918 rather than 1919.

 

As I explained to Mike this belt is the M1912 Cavalry belt which never had the rifle holder added. Note where the missing grommets should have been between the second and third and third and fourth pouches. Often when you see these belts without rifle holder, it has been removed and the belt shows the modification.

 

In Dorsey's book he mistakenly refers to this belt as the "Model 1903/10/17 Infantry Cartridge Belt". It's actually the M1912 Cavalry belt but with rifle holder removed. Or in the case of the Russell belt here, rifle holder was never added.

 

Has anyone ever done a topic on the M1912 Cavalry belt? I can't recall seeing one.

Frankie G.

 

Check out my US World War I Site,

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Here are more photos of the pocketed cartridge belt for the Lee Magazine rifle made by Mills in the mid to late 1890's. Photos from Advance Guard Militaria.

 

These puckered pockets really resemble the pockets of the early Mills M1903 belts.

 

So the early M1903 Mills belts had puckered pockets from their first issue? It looks like that to me. Any opinions on this?

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Frankie G.

 

Check out my US World War I Site,

http://www.aef-doughboys.com

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Mike, aka US Victory Museum had PM'd me about the Russell belt he just posted. It's hard to read the date on the belt but I believe it's 1918 rather than 1919.

 

As I explained to Mike this belt is the M1912 Cavalry belt which never had the rifle holder added. Note where the missing grommets should have been between the second and third and third and fourth pouches. Often when you see these belts without rifle holder, it has been removed and the belt shows the modification.

 

In Dorsey's book he mistakenly refers to this belt as the "Model 1903/10/17 Infantry Cartridge Belt". It's actually the M1912 Cavalry belt but with rifle holder removed. Or in the case of the Russell belt here, rifle holder was never added.

 

Has anyone ever done a topic on the M1912 Cavalry belt? I can't recall seeing one.

 

 

This is a Mills M1912 I bought in France in 2004 carefully converted to an ordinary M1907 cgt belt. A buddy on Gunboard had the donut trap so asked me the belt to restore it. I was glad to give it to him so you can see the belt before and after restoring.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 year later...
This shows the wider belt adjusting clasp which Russell seems to have used before Mills starting it 1907 and after.

 

 

This thread is teriffic! I just made a purchase on eBay that turned out to be one of these Russell Belts. I thought it might be a reproduction for a day until I discovered this thread. The belt has very interesting features that are not like most of the others I have seen in my research which you thoroughly document in your first few posts. The longer/thinner interlocking oval male end, no patent/date info stamped on the adjustment devices, the fact that the bottoms of each pouch are flat and not accordian-style, and the unique way the snaps are secured all all things that made me question the belt's authenticity.

 

I am always amazed at the amount of knowledge and helpful input provided on this forum. I just wanted to say thanks for helping others know what might be common knowledge to few.

 

Best,

Dan

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  • 6 months later...

Question:

Did water make them shrink?

I have my belt loaded and the clips are in there pretty tight. There are also outlines of the bullets on the pouches.

Is this because the belt got wet at some point and shrunk conforming to the rounds' shape?

 

I have a WW2 belt made of the same material and I want to know if I can wet it down to have the pouches shrink a little.

Fix Bayonets!

Looking for a trade in 30-40 Krag brass (with 308/30-06)

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  • 3 months later...

Frankie and All,

I was wondering if Russell ever made any 1903 Belts with narrow tips? If not, it leads me to a list like this.....

 

Model 1903 Cartridge Belt, Infantry

 

1st pattern, Mills manufacture puckered pocket, narrow belt end tips

 

2nd pattern, Mills manufacture puckered pocket, wide belt end tips

2nd pattern, Russell manufacture plain pocket, wide belt end tips

 

3rd pattern, Mills manufacture Reinforced puckered pocket, wide belt end tips

3rd pattern, Russell manufacture reinforced pocket, wide belt end tips

 

 

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

Jon P

Without data, your just another person with an opinion...................

 

Selling DVDs of Ordnance Drawings on ebay seller ID 245thcac
Original Research from Museums and The National Archives
1912 Cavalry Board Report, 1910 Infantry Board Report, Equipment Blueprints and Drawing, Coast Artillery Training Films and 1897 Specifications for Clothing
CHECK THEM OUT

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Frankie and All,

I was wondering if Russell ever made any 1903 Belts with narrow tips? If not, it leads me to a list like this.....

 

Model 1903 Cartridge Belt, Infantry

 

1st pattern, Mills manufacture puckered pocket, narrow belt end tips

 

2nd pattern, Mills manufacture puckered pocket, wide belt end tips

2nd pattern, Russell manufacture plain pocket, wide belt end tips

 

3rd pattern, Mills manufacture Reinforced puckered pocket, wide belt end tips

3rd pattern, Russell manufacture reinforced pocket, wide belt end tips

Any thoughts?

Jon P

 

Based on specimens and research I have done, here's how I have the belts broken down.

 

1st Pattern Mills, narrow belt ends, no Mills patent markings on the belt ends. ( RayG mentioned he has one of those)

1st Pattern Mills, narrow belt ends, Mills patent markings on the belt ends.

( All Mills Belts had puckered pockets)

 

1st Pattern Russell, Flat pockets, wide belt ends- The wide belt ends were a feature Russell had on their belts. See post 8 in this topic for more info.

 

2nd Pattern Mills, wide belt ends, new glove snaps, reinforced puckered pockets, Drab (Tan) color

2nd Pattern Mills, wide belt ends, new glove snaps, reinforced puckered pockets, Olive Drab

 

2nd Pattern Russell, wide belt ends, reinforced puckered pockets, OD- I've never seen any in tan, but that doesn't mean they never existed.

Frankie G.

 

Check out my US World War I Site,

http://www.aef-doughboys.com

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Just seemed like a natural progression. Which is why we have these discussions.

Without data, your just another person with an opinion...................

 

Selling DVDs of Ordnance Drawings on ebay seller ID 245thcac
Original Research from Museums and The National Archives
1912 Cavalry Board Report, 1910 Infantry Board Report, Equipment Blueprints and Drawing, Coast Artillery Training Films and 1897 Specifications for Clothing
CHECK THEM OUT

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