Robbins Naval Avaitor Wing

[Threewood]

Picked this up so I can start filling my new display case haha. Robbins hallmarked sterling naval aviator wing. Can anyone tell me if these are WW2 or earlier? Or later?

Mark

[rathbonemuseum.com]

I consider this their WWII pattern with their response to the design directive to include small "feathers" in the curve of the shoulder that most manufacturers interpreted as "berries". I like that the Robbins pattern actually seems to retain a little aspect of feather-like shape.

[historylives]

was this on ebay??

[KurtA]

14 minutes ago, rathbonemuseum.com said:

I consider this their WWII pattern with their response to the design directive to include small "feathers" in the curve of the shoulder that most manufacturers interpreted as "berries". I like that the Robbins pattern actually seems to retain a little aspect of feather-like shape.

And being made of sterling further supports it being of WW2 vintage.  Other than the non-strategic metal requirement, no other practical reason to make a gold colored badge of sterling.  
With that drop-in catch, I may have leaned towards pre-WW2 if it was not made of sterling.    (I didn’t previously know about the “small feathers design directive” you referred to - good  info!) 

[cwnorma]

What I find most fascinating about this particular Robbins badge is how well it illustrates the general frugality of these manufacturers:  Rather than commission a new die, Robbins apparently chose to re-work their existing die to conform to the new specifications.  Reworking the die allowed Robbins to continue using their already purchased cutting, shaping, and finishing tools with minimal additional investment.

 

Robbins appears to have re-worked their original Naval Aviator die at least twice before commissioning a new die:

 

1) Original die (fine lines to shield) 1917-1919*

2) First re-work (coarse lines to shield) 1919-1940*

3) Second re-work (more substantial changes, small "feathers" in shoulders) 1940-1942*

 

*Approximate.

 

 

 

Chris

[Threewood]

1 hour ago, historylives said:

was this on ebay??

Yes. There were a few bidders. 

[pfrost]

While I do often feel like we are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin when we talk about WHEN it was made, I do suspect that this particular Robbins' pattern wing was made in the mid to late 1930's and early 1940's.  I also suspect that there was LOTS of overlap. For example, the NANCO wings were probably made in the 40's from the earlier WWI reworked dies.  And I have an autobiographical NANCO wing to a guy who didn't earn his Aviator wings until the war was almost over (IIRC he was in one of the last graduating classes from Pensecola during the war).  He never saw combat and his NANCO wings are in their original box.

 

But I quibble.

 

This variant of the Robbins wings is not all that common, and makes a nice addition to any collection. 

 

There are more than a few threads about Robbins USN aviator wings that will give you all the information (and gossip) that you could probably want.

 

Very nice

 

P

 

 

[5thwingmarty]

So would this particular wing be one from the all new die?  Other than just the silhouette the details on the shield and feathers of this wing are completely different than the prior Robbins wings.  

[KurtA]

11 minutes ago, pfrost said:

While I do often feel like we are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin when we talk about WHEN it was made, 

 

 

True. But the  fact is we collectors place great  importance on whether items are pre war, wartime, or post war (no matter “which” war).  So, in that context, “when” is important. 
It’s not like we’re debating whether something was manufactured in 1955 or 1958.  
This particular pattern may have been made of pot metal prior to WW2 and of sterling during the war.  I would be interested to see an otherwise exact wing not made of sterling.   

[pfrost]

True and true.  But we collectors will argue about all sorts of things.  Such as cleaning, or polishing, or doing nothing to a wing, often to the point where moderators must toss buckets of cold water on our heads!  Collectors (and sports fans) are the worst for these types of things. I remember many a drunken night arguing with my roommates about who was better, Micheal Jordan or Magic Johnson... ahh, good times.

 

My point has always been just that... Collectors place a lot of importance on these things, but no one else really does--even the manufacturers who were making them. Boiled down,  the companies just wanted to make a product that they could sell and the pilots just wanted to wear some wings.  I have yet to talk to a vet who said to me "after I got my wings, I went looking for a Luxenberg wing to wear on my uniform".  Mostly they have told me... "I just wore what the gave me when I bought my uniform".

 

As to what factors or dealer lore, or historical evidence or autobiographical sources that we collectors use to "determine" when those decisions were made can be highly variable and capricious (not always a bad thing).  I am not implying that is bad, but it is a fact.

 

The use of "berries" on USN wings is one point where we can find the actual regulations that determined the use of berries, but that leaves a lot of wiggle room. 

 

I have always felt that any wing with berries was made during WWII, and any wing without berries COULD have been made from WWI up to WWII.  I think the Robbins wings is very interesting because it can be seen as an early application of what the idea of "berries" meant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cwnorma]

Well, if we are going to talk about feelings...  

 

Since equipment would need to be set up and taken down, and to achieve economies of scale, manufacturers like Robbins would make badges in production runs--and likely not one badge at a time.  

 

My feeling (theory) is: The early (1917-1918) fine-line die began to develop a small flaw on the top of the shield, about an 8th of an inch to the right of the central peak.  I believe this flaw developed during the last fine-line production run, some time around the end of WW1.  WW1-era, fine-line examples are sometimes found with the tiny flaw:

 

 

 

With literally thousands of Naval Aviation Cadets training at nearby MIT, Robbins wouldn't have wanted to be without production capability and probably worked quickly to get their die back in service.  If Robbins did not have their own in-house die sinkers, they would have had to contract the job.  Perhaps while their die was out of action, with cadets graduating weekly, Robbins exhausted their Naval Aviator blanks and also perceived that they were now behind!  Once they got back their now re-worked die, likely anticipating both continued and future high demand, they probably churned out a larger than normal run of Naval Aviator blanks of all varieties (gold, sterling, bronze, etc)...  

 

But then suddenly; the World War ended, the spring offensives never happened, and Robbins found themselves stuck with too many unfinished blanks.  

 

Saddled with excess inventory, Robbins likely sold the surplus (blanks and/or finished badges) to whoever would buy them in bulk (Nanco, Pancraft, Elebash, Wall & Douherty, The Navy, etc) at lower than market costs to recoup at least some sunk costs during the interwar years.  These sales likely continued until supply was exhausted... At some point, after finally getting rid of the surplus, Robbins may have begun production runs again as well.  This scenario accounts for the relatively common nature of the coarse-line shield wings and multiple makers.  Logically, the between-the-wars period should coincide with greatly reduced demand.  If numbers encountered were solely based on the size of the Naval Aviation Force during the interwar period, coarse-line Robbins wing badges (of all types) would be far scarcer than they actually are.

 

When Navy specifications changed to include the berries (around the beginning of WW2), Robbins likely re-worked the die a final time.

 

So unless Heath @haw68 happens to have those specific Robbins records somewhere in his files, we'll probably never know for sure exactly when die re-work #1 happened--although my personal feeling is it was probably closer to the tail end of WW1 (for the reasons expressed above).  Rework #2 probably happened shortly after the Navy published its new specifications.

 

Chris

 

 

[cwnorma]

1 hour ago, 5thwingmarty said:

So would this particular wing be one from the all new die?  Other than just the silhouette the details on the shield and feathers of this wing are completely different than the prior Robbins wings.  

Marty,

 

It is precisely the silhouette and shape that leads me to believe that it is the same die, albeit substantially re-worked.  I could also allow that it is an entirely new die that has been carefully crafted to be able to utilize the cutting and finishing tools from the previous die.  Either scenario would fit.

 

A skilled die sinker can soften, alter, re-cut, and then re-harden a good quality steel die.  I think the operative question would be (probably best answered by Heath): Which of the two scenarios would have been cheaper for Robbins?  

 

These manufacturers were notoriously frugal.  They would even use physically broken dies if they could be nominally repaired and put back into service or re-cut older dies if part of a previous design could be re-used in a new product.

 

Chris

[pfrost]

My memory may be bad, but I seem to recall someone (Cliff, maybe?) saying that Pancraft and NANCO were just trademarks of Robbins and used in WWII. 

 

Here is one from my collection. It has a Robbins hallmark on one side and a 1/20th 10K mark on the other—an early-style catch. This one came out of an estate to a guy who was an early 30s USN pilot. He seemed to have retired from the Navy just before WWII started.

 

 

 

Here is a montage of what I believe to be the 1918-1919 wings.  It is (IIRC) 10 K, with the Blanchard catch, using the early Robbins cartouche hallmarks. Note the fine lines in the shield. As with all WWI wings, relatively rare, if beautiful example.

 

The middle wing is the version with the reworked shields (1919-1945?),  These versions do not have (or at least I haven't seen them) the cartouche marking, but instead use Robbins (or unmarked or NANCO or PANCRAFT).  IMHO, this version was used throughout WWII.  Al teast I have some autobiographical wings (as stated above).  Not uncommonly found. 

 

The final version is the one with the "feather-berries".  The berries look like little feathers. It is my opinion (and that is all it is worth) that these probably represent an early adoption of what the USN wanted to see.  This pattern is rather rare, when compared to the reworked version.  I had actually never heard that these represent a reworking of the original die. But I guess it is possible.

 

(sorry about the watermarkes.  This was because HeWhoShallNotBeNamed was stealing images)

 

I am wondering if some of the unmarked wings we see with the more defined and "normal" berries also exist?  Or if there are hallmarked versions. I assume they made them.

 

 

 

[pfrost]

There is a ton of good information in this thread.

 

 

Again, do not fear the "search" button! 

 

I have always wondered (and maybe Heath can address this) was HOW MANY DIES a company may have used?  It is hard to imagine a big company like Robbins only had one die working, especially during WWII?  I have always wondered if they had multiple dies that they fired up when trying to fill an order.

 

In the above thread, Cliff suggests many Robbins-made wings during WWII were not hallmarked. 

[cwnorma]

45 minutes ago, pfrost said:

My memory may be bad, but I seem to recall someone (Cliff, maybe?) saying that Pancraft and NANCO were just trademarks of Robbins and used in WWII. 

 

No doubt the wings were all made by Robbins but Is NANCO a trademark of Robbins' or is that just collector lore from Robbins-type wings showing up with that trademark? We do know that Pancraft was a trademark of Joseph Panitz of Los Angeles, CA.

 

Those badges are all lovely and that fine-line Robbins is a stunner!

[Threewood]

The search function is my favorite function!  I've looked through the Robbins threads and didn't see anything definitive on war, pre- war on this type. There are a lot of different opinions and I suppose none of them are wrong. I believe any wings with the berries couldn't pre-date WW2 unless the company knew the war depth was going to make a change beforehand. 

 

This is an interesting wing. Sterling, small feathers and a drop in catch. This is only my 3rd Navy wing. I have an H&H which is post war, Vanguard WW2 and this guy. 

 

 

[pfrost]

It is a lovely wing and a nice addition to any collection.  It doesn't really matter when it was made, but it sure is a blast to talk about it.

 

Once you open that can of worms... you will want the "fine" line version, the fat line version, the NANCO, the Pancraft, the version with the cartouche, the "feather berries", the true berries... it never ends.  Best to just run away--otherwise, you will need to buy more cases... LOL

[5thwingmarty]

Here are three of mine which I think illustrate possible (probable?) reworking of the same die.  The first is another WWI example like Patrick shared.  The second has the more widely spaced line in both the chief and lower parts of the shield, but the lines are still very sharp and there are a total of 9 horizontal lines for the chief including the one which borders the bottom.  The third has less crisp lines in both the chief and the bottom of the shield, and there are 10 horizontal lines in the chief.  I also have a Pancraft example and it matches my second example her, except the die appears to have been a bit more worn.

 

Heath has said there were times when the wing makers would make wings with the general wing details, but then different dies would be used to add additional details such as the details on the center shields.  I don't know if Robbins might have made these wings in this way.

 

 

 

 

[cwnorma]

Some really beautiful wings!  I can look at examples of fine-line Robbins wings all day!  I still remember the set I bought from a dealer for $60. I snatched them up and he asked me, "Why didn't you try to get a better price?"  I told him: "Fine lines."

 

Chris

[Threewood]

The non berry versions are hard to come by, by any maker. I am currently watching one with about 1 day to go.

[B-17Guy]

Didn’t we have this conversation ten years ago?

It is in the Wing Manufactures section under Robbins.

Just say’in…

[pfrost]

If its worth pontificating about it once, then its worth pontificating about it again, I always say!

 

Yes you are correct, this dead horse has been beaten a couple of times.

 

[Threewood]

I'm just making sure the horse is dead. 😁