Johnson Mfg Co WW1 "Dallas-type" Wing Identified!

[cwnorma]

2 hours ago, Threewood said:

...when looking at the comparison Patrick posted above of the good and bad shield, these two areas stand out to me.

1) the horizontal line of beads on the original have an obvious stagger to them, whereas the fake are more "straight." And,

2) the stars in the field on the original have "skinny" legs and the stars in the fake are "fat".

I believe you are correct.  

 

Due to the sheer number of fakes infesting this field, it is precisely this level of detailed observation that will help a potential collector of WW1 era wings make a sound decision!

 

Warm regards!

 

Chris

[pfrost]

3 hours ago, Threewood said:

This is a very informative thread for those of us who are new to collecting, thank you all for the discussion.

 

This is well out of my wheelhouse, but when looking at the comparison Patrick posted above of the good and bad shield, these two areas stand out to me.

1) the horizontal line of beads on the original have an obvious stagger to them, whereas the fake are more "straight." And,

2) the stars in the field on the original have "skinny" legs and the stars in the fake are "fat".

Yes you are correct. I just highlighted SOME of the variations. Well spotted, sir!

[pfrost]

2 hours ago, cwnorma said:

The Bailey Banks and Biddle version of the "Dallas-type" wing shares this exact type of construction--a thin, flat, real gold US soldered onto a small, conformally shaped platform US integral to the shield.

 

v/r

Chris

 

Like it was mentioned, NOT ALL the dies were made the same.  Some (like Johnson and BB&B--and IIRC, the SHS/Eistenstadt wings) seem to have had the US integral to the pattern which would have been topped with the gold US. The Dunham wings did not.  In fact, the US had a separate die of its own, which was added directly to the shield.  I also believe the Tiffany wings were made without the US as part of the die (what I was trying to illustrate with the cartoon above). 

 

Years ago when I first started collecting I had a small notebook where I would make these types of notations about what I saw in various wings. Sadly, I left it on someone's table as a show one day.

 

(see this interesting thread: 

 

[cwnorma]

On 8/10/2024 at 9:54 AM, Threewood said:

This is a very informative thread for those of us who are new to collecting, thank you all for the discussion.

 

This is well out of my wheelhouse...

@Threewood, 

 

Sorry I missed your post before.  I think you have a good eye for detail and believe everything you wrote is spot-on.  The fact of the matter is there really are no experts on these wings.  

 

For most wing collectors, it has only been very recently that anyone even became aware these could even be a legitimate pattern--I personally must admit to having passed over badges of this type.  What I cannot say is if the badges I turned my nose up at were indeed good ones or bad.  In the past, when I saw that square shield, my (albeit misinformed) knowledge set in and I proceeded to ignore the square shield...  Were any of them good?  I can't say!

 

The best thing anyone can do now, when considering one of these for their collection is to begin with a very detailed comparison and healthy skepticism.  As you saw, the differences are small, but can be apparent when the badges are side-by-side. I am confident that over time, and with enough examples to compare, the definitive characteristics that make for a good badge will resolve into view.

 

Warm regards.

 

Chris

[Bull Moose]

News on the identity of this Dallas pattern wing traveled quick.

 

I received a notification from Live Auction site that one is available. However, they do not mention that it is a reproduction (23 dot shield).

Screenshot attached.

 

[pfrost]

It is a double edge sword putting stuff on the forum. But I would agree with you that this auction item is not like the ones that appear to have been made off the Johnson dies.

 

Like Chris says, Caveat Emptor.

[cwnorma]

That didn't take long!  🤣  To be honest, I expected some (good and bad) to find their way into the market pretty quickly after we made it public.  Fortunately there is enough information in this thread for a careful collector to make a sound decision.

[pfrost]

Chris downloaded these pictures for posterity, so I am posting them here.

[Threewood]

So this is up on the auction site right now. It does not look good. The U in U.S. is shorter than the S. Fat stars and the line of beads is too straight. Feather detail is just like the one shown above. 

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Agreed. No bueno. All the tells you indicate. 

[pfrost]

The wing from the last post (#34) is likely a cast version of the House of Swords Dallas wing fakes.  However, I think Chris and I (actually primarily due to Chris's  excellent insight) that the same hand who made these House of Swords POS was probably also involved in making the fake spade shield "Johnson" version. The House of Sword fakes are legion, and you find them and their closely related ilk of eBay (for example) all the time.

 

But certainly, the two fakes look like they are from the same hand.