A “new” US Airship Wing manufacturer: M. C. Lilley & Co.

[rathbonemuseum.com]

It should come as no surprise that one of the largest designers, manufacturers and distributors of military and fraternal regalia of all types since the Civil War would also have designed and manufactured aviation insignia as well. But it was unknown until now.

 

The M. C. Lilley  & Co was founded in 1864 in Columbus OH and quickly grew to become one of the largest military and related regalia manufacturers in the world. They were known for their fine embroidery, finely tailored uniforms and headgear and elegant swords and metal work. Most collectors would associate their work with fine 19th c. full dress items but they also made more common fittings. One example is this newly discovered Airship wing.

 

In 1951 all the assets of the former Lilley Companies were sold to C. E. Ward. The company subsequently went out of business in 1965. Fortunately, dies are often preserved as companies acquire each other until such time as they go to auction and end up in the hands of collectors. Thanks to the collecting passion of Heath White @haw68 we can see what remains of an M. C. Lilley & Co die set, including the original marked forcer (back side) and a lead test strike which, while low in detail, still shows some of the unique hallmarks of this design. 

 

Heath did not know if he would ever find a corresponding end product until the recent ASMIC show in North Canton, OH. Low and behold an Airship badge that had been in the Ron Burkey collection had been available for sale but collectors did not know what to make of it as it did not match any of the details of other known makers. And as it is with rare wings, suspicion is usually your friend to avoid disappointment. But Heath knew exactly it was the output of the dies in his possession. Now here united at last for everyone to see. A lovely M. C. Lilley & Co Airship wing.

[bschwartz]

Outstanding! Thank you for sharing the wing and the die. It still blows me away at how much information is continuing to come to light through people doing the hard work of finding these types of items and putting two and two together. The odds of all of this coming together are extremely low. What a great find and addition to the historical record of aviation badges.

[pfrost]

In design, these are VERY similar to the Kenny (although I don't think this is an exact match) and BB&B wings.  To my eyes, the feathering and the length of the balloon, details on the fins and gondola, and similarities on the suspension ropes and the front of the wing (especially the BB&B) are almost identical.  I see subtle differences in the Kenny wing, especially in the fins and the shoulder winglets.

 

I wonder if the Kenny and BB&B wings are so similar to the MC Lilly wings that they are often confused?  I also wonder if (in particular) the BB&B and Lilly wings aren't from the same die, albeit with different forcers for the backs?  As I understand it, it was not uncommon for some of these companies to buy products wholesale.  For small orders, it may have been more economical for a company like BB&B to contract out for a product to be produced using extant dies from another company (say MC Lilly).  Just a thought.

 

I look forward to a point by point comparision with the BB&B and M C Lilly wings.  Unless the BB&B dies are ALSO in Heath's collection? 

 

Great work.

P

 

 

[pfrost]

This was an interesting thread and historical analysis of M. C. Lilley

 

 

[pfrost]

I had some other questions that came up. For example, would it be safe to assume that M C Lilley also made pilot wings in the post WWI/pre-WWII era?  This thread (again thanks to information provided by Heath), suggests that M C Lilley may have had the hubs for making the Adams style wings.

 

There are a few interesting threads on airships in which Heath provided some great information.  I hope I caught them, but probably not all.
 

See post 10.

Then there was this post,

"

@haw68added this great ad to another thread, from a BB&B ad for airship wings, as he wrote:

 

"Attached is an ad from Army and Navy Journal (July 22, 1922 pg 1162) showing the BB&B Airship Wings.  The 'from Official Die' means the insignia was produced from a stamping die that was made from an 'official' hub.  On other similar hubs I am familiar with the hub was made at the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia for the Philadelphia Quartermaster.  The QM would then send the 'official' hubs to select manufacturers to produce insignia.  In the case of the Airship Pilot Wings I can prove M C Lilley manufactured these from official dies.  I assume BB&B manufactured these from 'official' hubs sent to them as well.  However, it is possible BB&B acquired
this insignia from Lilley or another manufacturer."

 

See this thread (#66)

 

as referenced in this thread:

 

 

[pfrost]

Interestingly enough, there is a "From Official Dies" airship wing shown on Bob's site:

 

https://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/airshipballoon/presleydieairship.shtml (images borrowed from Bob's site).

 

“Known makers” (thanks to Cliff for the primary source of this information)

 

1. Kinney Co.

2. Bailey, Banks & Biddle

3. V. H. Blackinton

4. William Link Co.

5. AMCRAFT (4 and 5 may be the same)

6. N. S. Meyer Inc.

7. "FROM OFFICIAL DIE" -- Perhaps M C Lilley/BB&B

8. A. E. & Co (I do know at least one serious collector who disagrees that AECo made this wing).

9. “THOS. HEATH, ATTLEBORO, MASS” as an unknown (IIRC confirmed by Heath)

10. M C Lilley (maybe same as 7)?

 

I would add M. C. Lilley which may be the 10th unique manufacturer, OR Lilley, Blackington and From Official dies (one, two or all three) are their own category.

 

It does seem that Lilley, BB&B made similar wings.  I haven't found anything marked with the M C Lilley hallmark on wings.  IM an ot sure where Heath falls into this mix.

[rathbonemuseum.com]

On 8/5/2024 at 10:00 PM, pfrost said:

9. “THOS. HEATH, ATTLEBORO, MASS” as an unknown (IIRC confirmed by Heath)

 

I think you got this Patrick from Cliff's post on "How to make an Airship badge" that you reposted above. He mentions the die is marked "THOS. HEATH". But as Heath will tell you (as he is tutored me), that is the name of the die maker, not the manufacturer of the product. Looking him up we find him mentioned on the Attleboro records: "Thomas Heath began hub and die cutting, the same year (1927), and is still carrying on the business under his own name."

[cwnorma]

3 hours ago, rathbonemuseum.com said:

 

I think you got this Patrick from Cliff's post on "How to make an Airship badge" that you reposted above. He mentions the die is marked "THOS. HEATH". But as Heath will tell you (as he is tutored me), that is the name of the die maker, not the manufacturer of the product. Looking him up we find him mentioned on the Attleboro records: "Thomas Heath began hub and die cutting, the same year (1927), and is still carrying on the business under his own name."

 

This is a really good point that Heath has brought to the discussion table.  Die making was relatively different than jewelry manufacture.  Generally, only the larger firms had die making capability in-house.  Most would contract with a "die maker" or "die sinker" to make the dies.  Regionally, multiple manufacturers could turn to the same die makers.  Associated cutting and trimming tools were an additional expense on top of the cost of dies.  There are economics involved and manufacturers small and large would generally not go to the expense of having dies (and cutting tools) made--unless commissioned to do so or they expected return on the investment.

 

Chris

[cwnorma]

One more thought on this wing and M. C. Lilley.  Given that M.C. Lilley was the largest single American manufacturer of regalia, uniforms, and insignia, it always stood to reason that among with the 1000s of other types of insignia we already knew they manufactured, they MUST have made wings!   Unfortunately, it seems as though M. C. Lilley did not ever mark any of the wings they made.  As it turns out (thanks to Heath!); we now know they did.  I would hazard a guess and speculate that given M. C. Lilley's size and capacity, they probably actually made quite a lot.

 

Somewhere in your collection right now there are bound to be M. C. Lilley made wings.  Our task now is to figure out which ones.

 

All the best!

 

Chris 

[pfrost]

I think you are right, Chris. I would believe that if they made a die for the airship wing, they probably made dies for all the other ratings that were coming out in the early 1920's. There would have been no way of knowing the future of the Airship program, and they would probably not need more than about 200-300 total wings that would be needed to kit out the 100-ish or so Airship pilots before the program ended in the 30's.  In fact, I think a good argument could be made that any "From Official Dies" wings you have (pilot, observer, aeronaut, etc) come from dies made/used by M C Lilley.  In fact, I did a search of other M C Lilley items (say masonic or fraternal badges) and didn't really find any hallmarks on those items.

 

Tod, yes, the original list came from Cliff's work on one of the threads.  I think there is a fine, if the somewhat blurry lines between who may have made the dies, who may (or may not) have actually stamped out and produced the wings, and who marketed and sold the products to the public.  So, in my list, I suspect that some "makers of wings" like Link/Amcraft, may have represented a mix of one company cutting a die and another getting ahold of that very same die and making a product.  I also wonder, considering how similar the strikes are, if M C Lilley actually made or had contracted the wings made by BB&B.  It gets murky.

 

I suspect AMCRAFT/Link airship wings are more common because they had included these examples in the salesmen boxes (see the gilt airship discussion, for example).  NS Meyers (according to LordJoedemort) used many different companies to produce their wings (and didn't actually make their wings at some non-existent NS Meyer plant), so it is possible that there is an NS Meyer wing die producer that sold wings to NS Meyer for resale (perhaps similar to the Thomas Heath situation). Would this be ANOTHER unknown wing maker to add to the list?

 

I believe that Heath may have some of the original documentation that goes with these dies. Maybe if we are lucky, he can add to the discussion and produce a 1929 memo that lists the number of wings struck off a particular die and where they went.  I can imagine that a manufacturing company would have some idea of the hours a die was used...  Wouldn't that be great!

 

P