New bayonet and knife purchase for review

[DBeard]

Just got these yesterday at a dixie gun and knife show.  What can you tell me about the bayonet and it's markings- guess it's union fork and hoe - why does it have u.c. on one side - does the white paint detract from it's quality?

The M3 knife is a ontario reproduction but is the scabbard authentic ww2?  IT has a BN stamp of 2 over 2.

Any info would be appreciated!

[Rhscott]

Utica made it in 1942 and later Union Fork and Hoe cut it down to 10” length.  The white paint is fine; someone just put it there to read the markings.

[Misfit 45]

The U.C. is for Utica Cutlery.  This Utica M1 bayonet originally had a 16" blade which was cut down by Union Fork and Hoe as directed by the military after April 1943.  Yours is  a very respectable bayonet. The M8 scabbard is WWII and it's an early one.  It has the early "tan" webbing which was soon replaced by the familiar green webbing.

Marv

[doyler]

As Misfit stated early M8 having the short web hanger and had a wire hook added as initially the M8 scabbards didn't use the hook and the hangers went from 4 3/4  length to 5 1/2 inches.

[Misfit 45]

I would like to clarify my statement about the scabbard.  It is early in the sense that it has the tan webbing.  It's not as early as the 4 1/2" shorty M8, but it is transitional. When the M8 scabbards were manufactured with the 5 1/2" webbing, they became known as the M8A1, even though the scabbard throat is still marked M8.

Marv

 

[DBeard]

Thanks for all the great information 👍 

I really enjoy this forum!!!

[DBeard]

Also -  any tips on what scabbard to look for that would be appropriate for the Utica bayonet.

[Misfit 45]

Here are a couple of pics of what you are looking for.   As with the longer bayonets which were cut down, the scabbards were cut down as well.  The metal part which is crimped together is the one that is cut down from 16".  The other one uses tabs which are bent inward to hold onto the body.  Both scabbards are for the ten inch M1 bayonet.  It does not matter which one you choose for your bayonet, because there was no attempt made to keep cut down scabbards with cut down bayonets. They just paired them as they came.

 

What to watch out for:   1. scabbards with very smooth even light green plastic bodies. They are not made with fiberglass as you see in the picture of the real one.  2.  Any markings other than the ones in my pictures are likely from a foreign gov't.  3. Any scabbards that have the same U.S. and flaming bomb, and look very new. Those usually have the smooth plastic bodies which you do not want.    

For your bayonet you would probably want a scabbard that has as little mileage on it, so you can stay away from the real ones that are in mint condition.  You'll save a lot of money there.

Marv

[tthen]

Marv's points are very good. I would say that if you find one that looks like this it is also US and ok. The lazy S mark is from Detroit Gasket.

Best of luck

[Misfit 45]

tthen

Just for curiosity, is that a long M1905/42 scabbard you show?  I don't think Detroit Gasket made a scabbard for the M1. You can occasionally find a cut down Detroit Gasket scabbard, but according to Gary Cunningham (RIP), the fiberglass they used was too brittle to reliably cut down. They kept breaking. Plus, the paint kept falling off.  I have one but they are hard to come by. As you can see, mine has no paint at all.  The brown color fiberglass is unique to Detroit Gasket.

Marv

[tthen]

Marv,

That photo is off this forum, and yes it is a 1905/42, just trying to show if he finds a cut down with the lazy S that it would be ok. You had stated that anything that wasn't marked as your examples may be other than US manufacture. I guess that's splitting hairs but I wasn't sure if he knew. As far as Detroit Gasket making M1 scabbards you are more knowledgeable than I. I will say my first US bayonet purchase was a cutdown bayonet and a cut down Detroit Gasket scabbard. It had more paint than yours but not much.

Sorry for the long winded reply

Tom 

[Misfit 45]

You are absolutely right. When I excluded the DG in my recommendations and warnings, I knew  I should have mentioned it, but I didn't want to give DBeard information overload.  Thanks for the opportunity to open up the topic.  There is one more odd piece of information about it you probably already know_   The "lazy S", as it is sometimes called, is really a backwards stylized DG, for Detroit Gasket.  You'll see it when you hold it up to a mirror.

Marv

[Misfit 45]

I should have included one more scabbard to stay away from...It's a US scabbard that was sent to Greece.  They put a metal tip on the scabbard, which is ok, I guess, but since it was altered by a foreign country, it has a little less value.

[DBeard]

I will look for a scabbard like this (my other m1 bayonet).  I was at a gun show not a militaria show,  so not a big selection,  but did see a few garand bayonets in scabbard with "M7" stamped on them instead of the flaming bomb.  One vendor said his were Danish bayonets.  What time period are the M7 scabbard from?

[Misfit 45]

A good question that needs a little clarification.  Back in 1943 when the M1 bayonet came out, the scabbard  was, and still is called an M7 scabbard....even though that designation is not on the scabbard.

The M7 scabbard that you saw at the gun show comes from the thousands that came back to the US from Greece about 10-15 years ago.  The vendor may have shown you a small molded symbol on the body of the scabbard. It is often mistaken for the Danish symbol.  It is actually the symbol for the Republic of China which is Taiwan.  They supplied the scabbards to the Greek government as replacements for the thousands that the US sent them sometime after WWII.   As a result,  most collectors call this "M7" scabbard  the Greek scabbard. Not sure of the time frame when these were made, but it was likely in the 1960s.

Marv