New addition, blue backed Amcraft pilot wing with yellow border.

[danimal03]

Hello,

I picked up this neat wing today at the North Sout Trader show in Doswell, VA.  It is a pilot, Amcraft-marked wing (impossible to photograph) on blue felt.  The back of the felt has some sort of black backing.  It has the yellow 'lead crew' border.  I know someone out there can provide a better explanation of this.  Meaning I do not know if this 'lead crew' lead four planes or how many?

 

This has remnants of loose thread and holes on the back indicating it was at least stitched to something at one point in time.  I had been looking for a blue backed wing at a reasonable price for a while and this one had the yellow border to boot.  I welcome any comments or concerns.  The wing I know is real.  If someone fooled me on the felt then I should stop chasing a blue backed wing as it definitely fooled me.  Thank you.  cheers!

[pfrost]

During WWII, some (but not all, by any means) 8th AAF bomb squadrons wore a blue backing behind their wings to donate a "combat crew".  They were intended to indicate that these particular crewmen were directly involved in flying combat (as not all air personnel would have been flying missions into Germany).  There is some indication that this was intended to keep "non-combat" flying personnel from simply pinning on wings when out "on the town" to impress the girls. However, I have always felt this was more "fiction" than fact--it wasn't universal in the 8th AAF (much less in the ETO, although there may have been some squadrons in the 9th that used these as well, but that is less clear. But there are plenty of pictures of crew wearing the blue backing, and even some period letters and correspondence mentioning these).

 

Making this a bit more complex is that many English-made bullion/cloth wings were made on a blue backing.  These wings, when trimmed down, left a blue backing that is often times attributed to "combat crews" but IMHO, that is probably more an artifact of the wing manufacturing process.

 

Each squadron usually had a lead airplane with the lead pilot, the lead navigator, and the lead bombardier. There was also a lead plane for each group and wing for each raid.  If a raid had multiple squadrons involved, there may have been an equal number of lead planes invovled.  Often times the other planes attacking the target would drop their bombs when the lead plane released over the target. Because the lead plane tended to have the higher ranking and senior pilots/crews, some of the groups added a gold braid around the combat blue patch.  Again, it wasn't something that was worn by every squadron in the 8th AAF.  Later in the war, most bombers didn't even take along a dedicated bombardier, as they would drop the bomb load when the lead plane did.

 

The thing is that it is relatively easy to "make" a combat blue patch and put a gold braid around it, so its never very clear to me what is legit vs what is fake.

But they were definitely worn by both enlisted and officers. Here are some nice pictures of the patch being worn in the 8th AAF.

 

Its hard to see but in this picture the two guys on the left are wearing combat patches.  I would expect that the senior pilot would have been one of they pilots on a lead plan, but his patch doesn't have the braid (best I can see).

 

You patch looks pretty good, but like I said, it doesn't take much skill to fake them.

 

[danimal03]

Thank you for the input.  I do appreciate the writeup and photos.  When I bought this, I was only looking for a blue backed version.  I just happened to come across this yellow bordered version at the show.  The seller was a small but advertised dealer.  Meaning not just a 'picker' buying a table.  I looked at their other wares and all looked 'ok'.  

 

I know the risks on these but felt it looked and felt okay as an overall 'package'.  At the end of the day, if I made a bad judgment call then I felt the lesson was worth the price of admission so to speak. 

 

I didn't pay much more than what a standard Amcraft wing is worth.  So, given the sum of the parts; an advertising dealer, real Amcraft wing, sewing holes, remnants of thread, and being not just a piece of felt, but having a separate piece of black backing gave me the overall warm and fuzzy so to speak. And actually, I lack an Amcraft wing in my collection so there to is a plus.

 

So it sounds like it is up to the individual to make their own judgement calls on specimens like this.  I am overall happy with my judgment call on this.  If I am wrong or right (or never proven either way), then I hope this post can serve as an educational post for future collectors.  

 

Again, a sincere thank you for your feedback and information.  Thank you.

 

 

[danimal03]

I should add, the dealer just had it laying on a table. No embellishments.  I hope I am not breaking the rules here, but I paid $110 for this wing.  I had not looked up values on period Amcraft wings but the cheapest I could find averaged around $100 I would say.  So who knows.  But the dealer is local.  And I am affiliated to a couple major dealers and we all know; selling a fake is overall bad business and catches up with you over time and reputation. 

 

But I am okay, and happy with the purchase based on my knowledge.  I welcome all comments.  Cheers!  Again, I am super grateful for previous and potential comments, good, bad, or the ugly.  Thank you.

[pfrost]

This seems like a good one. At least it doesn’t give me any obvious heartburn!  If you are happy I think it’s a nice addition to your collection 

 

[warguy]

I studied this lead combat crew “box” or patch pretty hard a few months ago as I wanted to add a good one to my collection. There is one pretty decent thread discussing these on this forum. From my study, I will share this:

 

1.) Your blue lead combat crew box is textbook original and British made. I personally wouldn't buy one of a different design than this, and everything I see in yours looks right. 

2.) In my opinion, you paid about $75 less than retail for your wing and this “box” together. I have seen the British made backing sell for around the $100.00 mark alone, occasionally priced a bit higher.

 

Also, while of course I agree that anything can be faked and a lot of fakes are very good, it is obviously far more difficult to fake the simple blue box than this one. The weave, materials, and way it was manufactured, etc. on yours are spot on, and if they are faking these at that caliber, I suspect I would have seen many more when I was hunting for mine. Just my two cents. 

 

Congratulations on a nice purchase. I would be proud to have this set in my collection. 

[Kropotkin]

Interesting topic. I bought a Meyer pilot wing with a lead combat crew patch many years ago when I was starting out collecting. I still have no certainty as to its authenticity but looks of an age for me to have taken a chance on it at the time.
 

The design differs from the one above (apologies for the cropped image of the reverse, I don’t have it to hand and the below images are from my archive).

[B-17Guy]

Here is mine for comparison.

John

[warguy]

Maguire offers a beautiful photo front and back of an attributed one in his reference Silver Wings Pinks and Greens page 112. It matches exact the one that started this thread as well as the one shown above by B-17 Guy. After searching for a few months, I found mine right here on the forum, offered for sale by a long time member who said he had it in his collection for many years. Here is mine. The English wing on top was previously in my collection and these did not come together. I was just having fun taking pictures. 

[B-17Guy]

Taken from "Fighter Pilot" by William R. Dunn University Press of Kentucky.
John

 

[danimal03]

Thanks for the comments.  Some nice pictures added as well.  Thank you.

[pfrost]

This is a very nice autobiographical wing worn by Harold "Dutch" Erbe (IIRC he flew with the 93rd and 393rd Bomb Squadrons).  I got this wing directly from Dutch and his daughter (Carol Erbe had founded the B24 forum many years ago).

They knew I was a collector and kindly gave me this wing.  Mr. Erbe recalled being excited about getting one of the "new-fangled" gunner wings with the bullet, but when he was in England, no one knew really exactly what they would look like, so he picked up this one in England with the "G" in the middle.  He thought that the local English tailors assumed that the gunner wings used by the USAAF would be similar to the RAF style.  You do see variations of this bullion style wing with "R", "E", "G", and "AG" (see the photo above).

 

On the B24 forum, it was nice because there were guys from the ETO, MTO, and PTO, and each had their own recollections about day to day life. But for the guys in England, when I asked about wearing things (like squadron patches, wings etc), they mostly said it sort of depended on the squadron or group leadership.  One guy said he wouldn't be caught dead wearing a squadron patch on his A2, while another guy had as many patches on his jacket as he thought the CO would let him get away with.  The guys in the Pacific were often happy just to have a uniform that didn't have huge holes in them.

 

However, most of the guys didn't recall any specific order or regulation, much less wearing a combat patch, but some did recall the British-made wings were nice because the blue background set them off against the uniform. On the other hand, more than a few said that during most of 1943 and 1944, the bomber crews flying into Europe were looking at close to 100% chance of getting KIA, WIA, MIA, or being made a POW before finishing their 25 missions (later 35 then 50). If you look at photos of guys during that time (say informal pictures of the guys at everyday tasks), it is very rare to find them wearing combat mission patches (although you do see them wearing wings). I would argue that most guys seen with those blue patches were photographed in more formal settings, likely late or after the war.  Most of the pictures I have seen (many posted above) are portraits or more formal pictures (say, getting medals, etc).  Dutch wasn't 100% sure, but he thinks he had this wing sewn on one of his "good uniforms" that he wore home (he said he never wore it in combat whilst flying missions).  My own suspicion is that these patches were worn late or after the war on the uniforms of the guys going home (the ones with all the bullion and ribbons and other "bling".  I doubt that they were EVER worn by the guys going into combat, as the last thing you wanted to do was get shot down and picked up by the Germans with one of those things on your uniform highlighting that you were "specially trained" (basically, they would have been seen as a "send me to the Gestapo for "enhanced treatment" cards),

 

I also asked some of the fellows about what it was like to go out on leave. Most said that it wasn't all that glamorous. Everything in England was rationed or in short supply. The local girls were pretty predatory (they had been at war since 1939is), and London and other areas were still getting bombed.  The aircrews were very busy most of the time anyway. New, replacement crews had to undergo training and weren't likely to be let out on leave willy-nilly. Guys flying combat were looking at a mission every few days, depending on weather and most of them weren't coming back. The idea that they could all be-bop down to London on a Friday after giving the Germans a good beating, get some tailored uniforms and then hit the bars to pick up on girls was not really something they were interested in doing (even if they could). One guy told me that up until D-Day, there was a fair amount of GIs around, but after that, the numbers of Americans went down as the war shifted deeper into France. He also said that the girls didn't care what you pinned on your uniform. Many of them had seen and heard it all already (and he said the best way to pick up a girl was with chocolate, cigarettes, or silk stockings, not wings), so he felt that they were the only ones who would get upset about a "poser" wearing unearned wings would the guys who actually earned them.

 

To make this post even longer, England was well known for its textile industry, even during the war.  They would use a woven felt-like woolen fabric (called melton) to back their wings, patches, and uniforms.  If you collect RAF and other commonwealth wings, you would be familiar with this material. Its NOT just a wool felt patch.

[danimal03]

Thank you for the image and information.  Very informative.  Thank you.