Duncan Campbell's Dunham restrike or cast copy?

[blind pew]

Ebay wing. You can see the details of this wing are muted with flaws on the shield, but I can't see the die flaw on the wing that characterized the strikes after the die broke. Thoughts?

 

I must say that it seems I NEVER come across a legit, period strike of this style of Dunham wings. 

[KurtA]

That thick side entry clasp reminds me of the one on that questionable airship pilot wing in a very recent thread 

I just don’t like the overall look of it. 

[pfrost]

I would read this thread very carefully.

 

I have always found it difficult to see the die flaw in many versions of this badge. But probably a better tell is the wrong US font.

 

My sense is you should tread very carefully around this badge.

 

 

[blind pew]

I know its no good Patrick. I was just wondering of which "stripe" it is.

[manayunkman]

Why is Duncan Campbell’s name in the title?

 

I apologize if that is a stupid question.

[pfrost]

The back story (as discussed in the linked thread) is that Duncan Campbell, Norm Flayderman, and a "a die-maker from Florida" had the original die for this pattern wing. They decided to strike some of their own copies of these wings for some of their friends.  But after making a handful of these wings, the die broke at the junction of the shield and wing.  As Chris mentions, they also had the origina die for the US.  After this, the fellow from Florida took the broken die (but not the "US" die), wired the pieces back together and apparently made a bunch more restrike versions. These restrikes all had a flaw where the original die had been fixed as well as the "wrong" US.

 

It is also more than likely that someone got one of the restrike versions and made even more copies of this wing.

 

So to recap.

 

1) There were probably only a VERY small (I would suspect less than 50) number of actual wings made by Dan Dunham in the 1918-1919 time period.  I have only seen 3 or 4 actually show up in an auction over the years.

 

2) When Duncan got the dies sometime in the 70's (IIRC), he only made a few more samples (I am just guessing of about a dozen or so) before the die broke.  Apparently the photos used in his book were of an example of these restikes. Also these wings did not have the die flaw and used the correct US. I suspect that is why Duncan's name is in the title.  I also believe that at lease one of these restrikes appeared in the Norm Flayderman auction in San Francisco in the late 90's (again IIRC).  I also believe the version sold from Duncan's collection after he died was the very one that was shown in his book.  All things considered, versions 1 (original) and version 2 (original restike or "Duncan restrike to coin a phrase) would be nearly identical.

 

3) After the die was broken, many more examples of this wing were made with the die flaw and the wrong US.

 

4) There are probably various cast versions of this wing out there, including some made by HeWhoShallNotBeNamed.

 

The ones in category 3 and 4 seem to be the most common version out there.  So Blind P had a valid question--is the example he shows an original 1918-19 version, a Duncan-era restrike, a post-broken die restrike OR a cast version?

 

 

[blind pew]

14 hours ago, pfrost said:

The back story (as discussed in the linked thread) is that Duncan Campbell, Norm Flayderman, and a "a die-maker from Florida" had the original die for this pattern wing. They decided to strike some of their own copies of these wings for some of their friends.  But after making a handful of these wings, the die broke at the junction of the shield and wing.  As Chris mentions, they also had the origina die for the US.  After this, the fellow from Florida took the broken die (but not the "US" die), wired the pieces back together and apparently made a bunch more restrike versions. These restrikes all had a flaw where the original die had been fixed as well as the "wrong" US.

 

It is also more than likely that someone got one of the restrike versions and made even more copies of this wing.

 

So to recap.

 

1) There were probably only a VERY small (I would suspect less than 50) number of actual wings made by Dan Dunham in the 1918-1919 time period.  I have only seen 3 or 4 actually show up in an auction over the years.

 

2) When Duncan got the dies sometime in the 70's (IIRC), he only made a few more samples (I am just guessing of about a dozen or so) before the die broke.  Apparently the photos used in his book were of an example of these restikes. Also these wings did not have the die flaw and used the correct US. I suspect that is why Duncan's name is in the title.  I also believe that at lease one of these restrikes appeared in the Norm Flayderman auction in San Francisco in the late 90's (again IIRC).  I also believe the version sold from Duncan's collection after he died was the very one that was shown in his book.  All things considered, versions 1 (original) and version 2 (original restike or "Duncan restrike to coin a phrase) would be nearly identical.

 

3) After the die was broken, many more examples of this wing were made with the die flaw and the wrong US.

 

4) There are probably various cast versions of this wing out there, including some made by HeWhoShallNotBeNamed.

 

The ones in category 3 and 4 seem to be the most common version out there.  So Blind P had a valid question--is the example he shows an original 1918-19 version, a Duncan-era restrike, a post-broken die restrike OR a cast version?

 

 

Great explanation! Thanks, Patrick! The part about only 50 real versions of this wing is perhaps why I have never been able to find a real one! I had no idea that legit versions were so rare. 

 

I have reviewed Chris' WW1 wings thread many times (a real gem and appreciated work) during which Patrick provided a ton of good information along the way. 

 

It's amazing, Patrick, that you have been able to pick up a few legit ones along the way. It is very much appreciated that you guys posted real wings as reference material, as otherwise that would be a little hard to come by!

 

PS- I posted these wings in the fake section for future reference

 

PPS- I apologize if the inclusion of Duncan Campbell's name in the thread was perceived as disparaging. That was not my thought nor intention. As opposed to other "restrikes" out there, it is my understanding that Mr. Campbell made those wings for amusement and were not intended to deceive. 

[cwnorma]

16 hours ago, pfrost said:

...There were probably only a VERY small (I would suspect less than 50) number of actual wings made by Dan Dunham in the 1918-1919 time period.  I have only seen 3 or 4 actually show up in an auction over the years.

 

I think this may be something of an understatement.  My guess (based on survivors) is that likely no more than 10 or 20 were ever made.  

 

My personal theory is that the originals were a late/post war attempt by Dunham to both incorporate the Adams changes and keep the bespoke wings phenomenon rolling.  Of course, Dunham couldn't have known that the whole "FROM OFFICIAL DIE" effort would come along and quash the jeweler-designed wings.

 

Chris

[pfrost]

There is a least one photo of a pilot wearing these badges.  No idea of when the photo was taken, but here it is.  I kind of developed a kind of math for rare wings. First I figure about a 50% "you don't know who has one in their collection" vs "one's I have seen".  I think I have seen about 5 of these particular badges in various books, auctions, collections etc.  So I double that for wings I have no idea exist to to give me a rough estimate of about 10 extant wings.  Then I figure that there is about a 5-10% survival rate from the original number, which puts in the range of 50-100 produced wings.

 

Its all conjecture of course. But at least some were made and worn.

 

 

[blind pew]

This has been an interesting thread. Again, I had no idea how rare those wings were. 

 

I guess my notions about them were somewhat influenced by the large number of fakes/restrikes that I have run across. I erroneously somehow thought that translated into a more common legitimate wing. 

 

Well.......................... I don't know A LOT more than I know. 

[bschwartz]

I have two different versions of this badge on my site from Cliff's collection.  The first one is different in that the shoulders of wing protrude outward while in the second version the shoulders are more concave.  The second version is the one that matches with the original wing posted in this thread.

 

 

[blind pew]

Thanks for posting! It's nice to see both of those types side by side. You  can see the differences quite clearly.