Anyone have access to the list of numbered USMC China Relief Expedition Medal recipients?

[bbmilitaria]

Hello all, does anyone have access to the list of numbered USMC China Relief Expedition Medal recipients? I see in the archive that the list is 80% complete, but no mention on where to find the list. Thank you in advance for any help or a point in the right direction.

[atb]

Odd looking numbering style to me. Anyone have a comparison USN China Relief Expedition Medal for comparison?

[Dirk]

[bbmilitaria]

The original post is a USMC, not a USN medal. Comparison from medalmulisha.

[Dirk]

here you go, the number posted above is from this medal….
 

 

[bbmilitaria]

It seems the first medal in the post would have been a 1920's issue with hand engraving and the blue edge stripe to the ribbon. 

[bbmilitaria]

Credit to medalmulisha.

[KurtA]

Not caring for the first medal pictured.  Size and gauge of the planchet ring (could just be angle and lighting, but looks a bit too thick), very odd numbering (not the standard BBB stamping or the later BBB hand engraving as illustrated on the other 2 medals in this thread) and no inner ring on the planchet (compare the 2nd and 3rd medals - they have that inner ring on the border of the planchet). 

Even that very dark patina makes me think chemicals were involved. 

I personally think it's a later fake made to deceive rather than some later  issued/purchased replacement medal.  

[Jim T]

       The numbering in post #1 is unquestionably meant to deceive. The medal itself at very best could be described as a later strike.

 

.........

 

Jim T

[bbmilitaria]

Not what I was expecting to hear. A friend purchased this and a numbered Span-Am veterans badge in the same old jewelry box at a VFW charity/fundraiser for $15.00 in a small town here in Nebraska. Thought this was a home run for sure. I was hoping the number would match to someone in the area. I see what Kurt is saying about the second circle inside the planchet. I appreciate the help.

[Dirk]

Another tell between good and bad  imho is the anchor flukes and the poorly done claws on the eagle

[usmedalman]

I believe all USMC China Relief were hand engraved. Since they are not all engraved by the same person there are differences in the numbering. But as Dirk mentions, the eagle is wrong in a number of ways.

[Jim T]

usmedalman...

 

   As much as it pains me, I have to disagree with you regarding the engraved numbers: for the USMC China Relief (CRE) campaign, I believe that, except for the serial number range 525 - 625 and some officially authorized replacement medals, the numbers were machine-stamped; and this on badges with characteristics of the earliest production strikes by Bailey Banks & Biddle.

 

v/r,

 

 

Jim

 

.......

 

     I don't think it has been established precisely when then the US Mint assumed production; 1920s ?  Those (Mint) strikes weren't numbered. 

 

     In addition to this fully official phase - and I haven't seen anything to indicate that the Marine CRE was officially produced (i.e. via formal contact) by any entity other than BB&B or the US Mint - we know of the George Studley/Davison Co. collaboration. Davison produced pendants of very good detail and quality and I'm certain had no part in the fraudulent numbering and marketing scheme characteristic of this epoch. 

 

      A flock of totally unofficial and increasingly inferior strikes subsequently seems to have taken flight. This to the point where we now have (photo 2 in post#1) an eagle without a well defined neck and possibly without a head which appears to be playing, or having half-swallowed, a trumpet....backwards. A very solid tell. Another, on the obverse, are those bowling balls descending down the left and right corners at the street side of the uppermost roof:  the detail of roof decoration at those points should be semicircular and a lot less pronounced. I learned that one the hard way. 

 

    But bbmilitaria everyone of us have experienced something similar (another of mine was a Merchant Marine Mariner's Medal which turned out to be a sand casting). Your friend had to make the decision or someone else would have (as did I pass up a Navy version of the City of Brooklyn Civil War Medal...engraved with his name...for $5; someone else didn't pass that one up). Sometimes the deal is: strike first, ask questions later. 

 

    This item isn't worthless, it's just worth less. That's a pretty nice split pin brooch and even the ribbon is decent. This medal could serve as a filler in a display: to the average person it looks fine. And the SAW badge is worth something too.

 

   With the advent of these online auctions it became harder, to the point of virtually impossible, to just stumble upon a gem (an original issue Brevet Medal group at your local flea market? or a documented trio of Nickel Crosses in a cigar box possibly?) but it has happened. And it will again.

 

 

 .....

 

Jim T

 

.

 

[KurtA]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:50 PM, usmedalman said:

I believe all USMC China Relief were hand engraved. Since they are not all engraved by the same person there are differences in the numbering. But as Dirk mentions, the eagle is wrong in a number of ways.

No.  See post #3 above which is the original issue BB&B strike with stamped numerals.  

[usmedalman]

30 minutes ago, KurtA said:

No.  See post #3 above which is the original issue BB&B strike with stamped numerals.  

I stand corrected.

[usmedalman]

1 hour ago, Jim T said:

usmedalman...

 

   As much as it pains me, I have to disagree with you regarding the engraved numbers: for the USMC China Relief (CRE) campaign, I believe that, except for the serial number range 525 - 625 and some officially authorized replacement medals, the numbers were machine-stamped; and this on badges with characteristics of the earliest production strikes by Bailey Banks & Biddle.

 

v/r,

 

 

Jim

 

.......

 

     I don't think it has been established precisely when then the US Mint assumed production; 1920s ?  Those (Mint) strikes weren't numbered. 

 

     In addition to this fully official phase - and I haven't seen anything to indicate that the Marine CRE was officially produced (i.e. via formal contact) by any entity other than BB&B or the US Mint - we know of the George Studley/Davison Co. collaboration. Davison produced pendants of very good detail and quality and I'm certain had no part in the fraudulent numbering and marketing scheme characteristic of this epoch. 

 

      A flock of totally unofficial and increasingly inferior strikes subsequently seems to have taken flight. This to the point where we now have (photo 2 in post#1) an eagle without a well defined neck and possibly without a head which appears to be playing, or having half-swallowed, a trumpet....backwards. A very solid tell. Another, on the obverse, are those bowling balls descending down the left and right corners at the street side of the uppermost roof:  the detail of roof decoration at those points should be semicircular and a lot less pronounced. I learned that one the hard way. 

 

    But bbmilitaria everyone of us have experienced something similar (another of mine was a Merchant Marine Mariner's Medal which turned out to be a sand casting). Your friend had to make the decision or someone else would have (as did I pass up a Navy version of the City of Brooklyn Civil War Medal...engraved with his name...for $5; someone else didn't pass that one up). Sometimes the deal is: strike first, ask questions later. 

 

    This item isn't worthless, it's just worth less. That's a pretty nice split pin brooch and even the ribbon is decent. This medal could serve as a filler in a display: to the average person it looks fine. And the SAW badge is worth something too.

 

   With the advent of these online auctions it became harder, to the point of virtually impossible, to just stumble upon a gem (an original issue Brevet Medal group at your local flea market? or a documented trio of Nickel Crosses in a cigar box possibly?) but it has happened. And it will again.

 

 

 .....

 

Jim T

 

.

 

Thanks for the post, Jim very good information.