LE LOUP DES MERS Posted January 14, 2024 #1 Posted January 14, 2024 I wanna settle this once and for all, I have talked to multiple gun collectors/Vietnam collectors, read multiple forums, and talked to multiple Vietnam vets and it seems to be a never ending debate. When did the trap E butt stock aka (trap door) first appear on the m16a1? Some people say 1968-1969 is when the military started using the type e. Others say 1971 is when it was first adopted. I'm building an m16a1 h and r clone and want to know if the type e is correct or not. Or if I need to use a type d, I'm focused on the army for my a1 build and focusing on the years 68 to 69 for the build. Everyone I have asked including veterans, some say in 1968-1969 they had the type e stock on the a1 issued to them. Others say, that that's not true, they didn't start using them/seeing them until 71.
LE LOUP DES MERS Posted January 14, 2024 Author #2 Posted January 14, 2024 I don't know how true this is, but to my understanding h and r and gm/hydra m16a1's were only issued with the type d stocks?
USMC_COLLECTOR Posted January 14, 2024 #3 Posted January 14, 2024 I would say 68 were when they were introduced.
Av8er Posted January 14, 2024 #4 Posted January 14, 2024 2 hours ago, USMC_COLLECTOR said: I would say 68 were when they were introduced. I would agree 1968, when the first real M16A1 contracts started showing up in the field, following the XM16E1’s. I believe the birdcage flash suppressor and the trapdoor buttstock came about the same time as a product improvement along with the magazine release button fence that was incorporated with the standardization of the M16A1.
RG 67 Posted February 2, 2024 #5 Posted February 2, 2024 I would love to see an original H&R or GM trapdoor stock, bc that wld be a rare bird, bc there aint none. SHO-ME. Dont tell me, show me. Period; end.
whittond Posted January 19 #6 Posted January 19 Gents, As requested, here are pictures of my Two, 1969-1970 H&R M16A1 Rifles, both are NOS, Unfired condition, Untampered with condition, from the 1985 H&R Asset Reduction Sale when they were filling for Bankruptcy. These rifles never left H&R until this sale in 1985. Both rifles are listed on the H&R sales inventory list of 35 M16A1 rifles from 1985. The earliest serial numbered rifle has both front & rear dimple quick release pins, Type-D Butt Stock ( White Dot marked on the receiver stud ), Thick Wide more square Pistol Grip (unmarked). Late 1969 to mid 1970 production, best estimate. The later serial numbered rifle only has a rear dimple quick release pin, Type-E Butt Stock ( 1B marked on the receiver stud ), Thin Oval more rounded Pistol Grip (unmarked). Late 1970 production, best estimate. Earliest rifle is the top one in the photo of the two together with their accessories, Later rifle is the bottom rifle.
whittond Posted January 19 #7 Posted January 19 Earliest serial numbered rifle & Butt Stock / Pistol Grip photos.
whittond Posted January 19 #8 Posted January 19 Later serial numbered rifle & Butt Stock / Pistol Grip photos.
whittond Posted January 19 #9 Posted January 19 Neither rifle has been tampered with, they were purchased from H&R and put away in Gun Safes. Based on my 45 years of looking through Vietnam combat photos (many of which have been recent in my own XM16E1 & M16A1 research), to the best of my memory, I have not seen any pictures of M16A1 rifles (Full Fence and Bird Cage Flash Suppressor) with a Type-E Butt Stock in any 1968 or 1969 dated photos. Just my personal observation so far. Semper Fi, Dan
Rhscott Posted January 20 #11 Posted January 20 2 hours ago, whittond said: Neither rifle has been tampered with, they were purchased from H&R and put away in Gun Safes. Based on my 45 years of looking through Vietnam combat photos (many of which have been recent in my own XM16E1 & M16A1 research), to the best of my memory, I have not seen any pictures of M16A1 rifles (Full Fence and Bird Cage Flash Suppressor) with a Type-E Butt Stock in any 1968 or 1969 dated photos. Just my personal observation so far. Semper Fi, Dan Those are beautiful rifles and thank you for posting the pix. note: going off of veteran accounts of what their rifle looked like 60 years ago is how the nagging “Mattel made M16s” rumor stays alive too.
LE LOUP DES MERS Posted January 20 Author #12 Posted January 20 Nice pictures, so from what you're saying then 70-71 would be more "correct" for when the trapdoors entered production.
whittond Posted January 22 #13 Posted January 22 As best as I can determine, based on the Dated (Official DOD Combat Photographers & Date Marked 35mm Camera) Vietnam Combat photos I have personally seen along with my two H&R (Museum) Asset Reduction Sale M16A1s, I'm leaning heavy towards 1970, 1971 for Type-E Butt Stocks (Cleaning Kit / Trap Door stocks) being installed on production rifles as Colt / H&R / GM Hydramatic Div ran out of Type D Butt stocks. Its also possible H&R put this Type-E Butt stock on Post production to show this Vietnam era Butt stock example since these were H&R Museum storage rifles and they completed their contract delivery requirements in March 1971, just cant find any verification information on any of it. Colt may have started installing them as a DOD contract requirement after H&R and GM's DOD contracts expired and their production was completed, just do not know, heathy speculation. Its to bad no one has found any Colt / H&R / GM Hydramatic Div production records recording the Butt stock change over.
whittond Posted January 22 #14 Posted January 22 Correction on the quantity of M16/M16A1 rifles that were sold in the 1985 H&R Asset Liquidation Sale, it was 65 rifles, all were H&Rs with exception to one Colt. My " 35 " stated earlier must have been from my mental dyslexia kicking in. H&R M16A1 Sn's from 1985 Asset Reduction Sale.docx
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