Extremely rare China Marine 4th Regt Co M patch

[mortaydc60]

Used the "extremely rare" term to catch your attention. It real applies here. Found only two post in all of forum and one was mine where I pictured a version and other was initial post 15 years ago where it was  also pictured and mentioned that only other was in Marine Museum at Quantico. There is also article on the patch in the Trading Post in 2000 that also had second article on the "Most Wanted Patches". From article unit was in China 1927 and left in Nov 1941. The earlier post mentioned Carl Robbin a very well known and respected dealer who obtained the patch directly from Marine who lived in OK ,  who had been  taken prisoner on Wake Island.

 

 I was fortunate to obtain both versions of the patch. One version is for winter, darker background and other is lighter background for summer. These patches are probably the earliest and only Marine shoulder patches to be used AFTER WW1 but before WW2. Possibly only a handful exist and reason to show.

[warguy]

Very nice! Thanks for sharing. I saw your old post a year or so ago, I never knew these existed. rare is an understatement. 

[otter42]

Would you show us the reverse? Thanks for sharing.  

[mortaydc60]

The reverse is shown in other posts. Lets not help the repo guys too much,make them work for it.

[otter42]

👌

[Brig]

@Dirk

[Dirk]

Mort I know you know your stuff when it comes to SSI’s….I think these must of existed, but I have yet to find a reference why only Company M had them. Would love to find a reference on the what and why of these….kinda like the China Marine’s language patch. That patch was identified as being awarded in period publications,  but have yet to see any photo of someone wearing it.  

[mortaydc60]

Good question as to why we see only M Co. I have no idea and would love to know also. But apparently the Marine Museum feels comfortable with it on display, so who am I to question? Not sure why people always bring up question about photo evidence, when perhaps hundreds even thousands of insignia are not evidenced in photos. That we can save for another discussion. Have yet to see a photo of a dinosaur but pretty sure they existed. Sorry if comes off badly but not a fan of this argument against existence of an item.

[Dirk]

As an exclusively China Marine collector, I want to know why they were made and how they were worn, does a dress blue version exist? I am not doubting they exist based upon my limited understanding of Chinese needlework….so yes a photo would help me answer one of those three questions. I work with the Marine Museum curators from time to time….and they will tell you they have gaps in their knowledge….also given how haphazardly things were acquired years ago they have discovered fakes or misrepresented/mislabeled things in their collection and and constantly on the look out for confirmation on a number of their pieces. The last time I was in their curation department, I watched as a highly knowledgeable Marine uniform collector (and retired Marine/former curator himself) broke down a civil war uniform that was made up of real and reproduction pieces that was a long time museum acquisition. So just because a museum has it, does not always mean an item is good. As for the items Mort showed….I think their fine and would welcome them in my collection if I came across a set like them. I know NCHS makes repops, but they fall below what Mort showing us. I am glad you chose not to show the backs. Did a quick check and M company is in the 31-32 annual  through 33-34 but not in 35.

[CUBUSMC]

I am not real sure that you will ever get more information on these patches.  I can only assume that since Marines were not authorized patches that it was a very local thing, like so many other Marine patches through out the years.  I truly doubt that they had any local authority to wear it.  But someone in the company probably had them made up very cheap and either sold them or gave them to other members of the company.  I saw the one at the museum, but as you said, it does not really tell the entire story surrounding the patch.  I have also seen one other winter patch worn on a uniform in a collection, but again the collector had very little knowledge surrounding the patch, other than the Marines name who's uniform it was on.  Perhaps these Marines sewed them on when they got out or for a limited time in China?  Anyway, both patches are awesome!  Semper Fi! - Jeff 

[mortaydc60]

According to ASMIC article there were metal badges of different colors for Co A,B,C, and D that were worn on the fur hats worn by the horse troops. Just some additional information.

[warguy]

Mort, I know Dirk will jump on this as well, but unlike the cloth patches discussed in this thread, the metal diamond badges worn on the fur caps are very well known to collectors of Marine material. They are well documented and researched, and appear in a lot of period photographs. I know Dirk to be an expert on these, and a few forum members are lucky enough to own one or more. The fur hat itself is far more rare than the diamond, and at last count, I think fewer than 10 original fur caps have been accounted for. White, red, yellow, blue and (with some debate) green are the colors for the diamonds and they correspond to the various companies. 

[Dirk]

The enameled (metal) badges Mort references were only used in Peking and later Tientsin. The patch you show is for a Shanghai-based company in the 4th Marines, an entirely different Marine unit then the Peking based embassy/legation Marine guards that wore the diamonds.  I think the best hope for finding the history of the patch would be a lucky find in an issue of Walla Walla, the 4th Marines weekly newsletter. Warguy is dead on on the rarity of the fur hats and the scarcity of the diamonds. Lastly, I do know sometimes the China Marines would create, buy, had made, or modify a clothing item, and then ask HQ USMC if they could add it officially to their issued items….examples being sun helmets or Chinese made fur caps. Most of the time HQs said no….although not always.