Old demilled still legal?

[Ben@HI]

Something I was wondering about, a lot of stuff that was demilled in the past is not exactly up to current spec's (especially when it keeps changing). Like bazookas and mortars with undersized holes drilled in them and gutted machine guns completely welded up (used to be a common sight around military institutions and VFW's) or cannons with the breach gutted and welded opened or closed but otherwise operational. I've seen some of these things pop up for sale from time to time but I don't know if the old demill is still valid or if you would have to demill it to current spec to own it so I play it safe and turn them down. I've heard they are grandfathered and and nobody really cares as long as they where demilled at some point but on the other hand I've also heard that they need to be up to current spec to the point that a parts kit that was sold a couple of years ago needs to be torched on the edges because saw cut is no longer a valid demill as per current  guidelines. Does anybody know exactly what the rules are? I know obviously if someone has a fully intact AK from  Iraq with a small spot weld holding the bolt closed it's not going to be legal (I actually heard a story about a unit  getting in trouble over doing this and hanging it up in their office) but what about something like a old demilled bazooka that has holes cut in it but no rods welded in or a BAR kit with a 3 piece saw cut receiver? Would these be ok because they were legal when they were done or do they now need to be further demilled to be legal because the guidelines changed? Or is it better to just keep avoiding stuff like this all together?

[dhcoleterracina]

Ben,  there's a really helpful guy who has a website called Great War Relics. He recently had a dug German MG-42 that was cut in three pieces. He would be up on the current regulations. Perhaps you could contact him with a specific question. Good luck. 

[whiskydown]

I'm afraid you won't find a simple answer to this complicated question.

 

The current ATF published firearm destruction methods are here:

 

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-properly-destroy-firearms

 

Machinegun destruction:

 

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/machinegun-destruction

 

From page 21 of the ATF NFA Handbook you find how to remove a destructive device (like WWII artillery) from the NFA:

 

Large caliber destructive devices that are not also machineguns can be removed from the NFA by
disposing of the barrel. If the barrel of a 37mm cannon is removed and disposed of, the remaining
weapon has no barrel or bore diameter. As an alternative, the barrel of a destructive device may be
functionally destroyed. To destroy the barrel of a destructive device the following operations must be
performed:
• Cut a hole, equal to the diameter of the bore, on a 90-degree angle to the axis of the bore,
through one side of the barrel in the high pressure (chamber) area.
• Weld the barrel to the receiver of the weapon.
• Weld an obstruction into the barrel to prevent the introduction of a round of ammunition.

 

They fail to mention above that if you remove the 37mm barrel from a cannon the breech ring or "receiver" is still a title 1 firearm (same as an AR-15 lower).

 

So now, how do they view items that were destroyed according to previous standards? Many monument guns (artillery) that were handed out immediately after WWII were simply closed up and tack welded shut. 

 

As far as I am aware, the ATF does not have grandfathering in place. I have never seen it in writing or heard it verbally from an agent.

 

Does this mean they are actively pursuing this issue? It doesn't seem to be the case*. If an ATF agent sees something right in front of them and they happen to be highly trained on the nuance of bazooka destruction (many are not) then they will probably do something about it. Charge you with a crime? Unlikely. Confiscate it? Possibly. I have dealt with ATF agents who are very understanding and easy to work with, but I know plenty of stories about ones who seem to be out to get you. Either way, they can't view things through the lense of yesterday. They can only read the current rules and apply them. How they apply them is up to the individual agent. Officer discretion. That may be influenced by how smelly you are and if you're currently engaged in a crime or if you're just a clean cut collector adding another historic item to your man cave. 

 

*Recently someone was charged with selling single saw cut machinegun receivers. That seems to be a combination of the receivers being of non-US origin, a high volume of selling, and that selling occurring online right where the ATF loves to look for violations. The ATF loves to surf the internet looking for crime. The ATF loves finding crime online. It is cheap, easy, and safe for agents. So in this case, it seems the tallest blade of grass got cut. I can find you links right now to firearm receivers being sold with a single saw cut, or mortars that aren't properly demilled. It happens all the time, like rolling through a stop sign. But the consequences could be greater if caught. 

 

PS. More on monument guns...

 

The ATF really doesn't seem to be concerned with these, since they aren't going around cutting them up. If they were concerned, this would be low hanging fruit for them, since these items are so visible to anyone. The government body that is very concerned with monument guns is TACOM. The part of the US Army that manages the Army donation program, which claims to own all monument guns on display, and many will argue those guns were gifts and not loans. Either way, anyone selling or buying a monument gun needs to know the history of the gun and if TACOM is currently looking for it. The gun could be registered with TACOM by the carriage number, recoil mechanism number, gun number, or really any number visible. There was no consistency back in the day. TACOM will gladly confiscate a piece of artillery from a private owner if they can tie it to their database of monument guns.