Thoughts on 3rd Infantry Division Medic Painted M1

[john k]

12 hours ago, nightrider said:

Could you please elaborate on this... Why are they wrong exactly? 

 

I think the concern was that it's a rear seam shell, but the buckle on the strap is an early brass style.

[nightrider]

1 minute ago, john k said:

 

I think the concern was that it's a rear seam shell, but the buckle on the strap is an early brass style.

Its front seam.... 

 

Regards 

[john k]

6 minutes ago, nightrider said:

Its front seam.... 

 

Regards 

 

Indeed, my mistake.  I got as far as seeing the non-stainless loops and rim (not entirely sure, could be stainless retaining most of it's paint?) and thought I was seeing a rear seam mistakenly.  

 

Either way, with non-stainless, swivel loops, it's a later ww2 shell with an earlier brass buckle.  (I don't know if this has ever been observed, I was just speaking to the question about Frednizza's statement that "In any case the chin strap type is wrong on this helmet.)

[frednizza]

14 hours ago, nightrider said:

Could you please elaborate on this... Why are they wrong exactly? 

Early buckle not for swivel late made helmet.

[nightrider]

1 hour ago, frednizza said:

Early buckle not for swivel late made helmet.

Hi Fred, 

 

Thanks for getting back.  

 

I thought that they were still using flat brass buckles on early swivel bails, so could that not be the case, that an early swivel had flat brass buckles as opposed to the raised brass buckles. 

 

It's hard to tell from the picture but it looks flat to me

 

There was no mention of the heat stamp so I'm unable to give a date for the shell. 

 

 

Just a thought

[john k]

I thought I was seeing a brass raised bar buckle, but now not so sure?  

[P-59A]

On 9/12/2023 at 12:27 AM, frednizza said:

For the chinstraps the soldier soaked them in water and attached them on the helmet back and When they was dry  they had the right length.

fred

I have two early M1 helmets with the short chin straps. There is not enough chin strap to soak and pull together. The first lid has a heat treat of 32B 3 and the second is 209B.

[frednizza]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:16 PM, nightrider said:

Hi Fred, 

 

Thanks for getting back.  

 

I thought that they were still using flat brass buckles on early swivel bails, so could that not be the case, that an early swivel had flat brass buckles as opposed to the raised brass buckles. 

 

It's hard to tell from the picture but it looks flat to me

 

There was no mention of the heat stamp so I'm unable to give a date for the shell. 

 

 

Just a thought

Mop, it’s not possible, on the late fixed bail it was no more the case, l bielieve shulter introduce them in end 1942 beginning 1943.

your helmet is a late swivel bails, the border is steel not inox of my view.

bad we don’t have the #.

fred

 

 

[P-59A]

So, in another post a chinstrap was brought up. One of the guys who chimmed in mentioned the color of the tack on the chin strap. He stated the tack should be a light OD color and not tan. I dug into that and the photographic record gives weight to this.    

 

[frednizza]

1 hour ago, P-59A said:

I have two early M1 helmets with the short chin straps. There is not enough chin strap to soak and pull together. The first lid has a heat treat of 32B 3 and the second is 209B.

On your helmet 209B is the strap in zinc or steel, it’s appeared rusty You?

I believe we should open an other topic on this point, it’s will be very interesting.

And for swivel bails straps it’s will be too, the swivel ball M1 are not well know, and in south of France we found some. Lost in combat from August and September 44.

fred

 

[P-59A]

1 hour ago, frednizza said:

On your helmet 209B is the strap in zinc or steel, it’s appeared rusty You?

I believe we should open an other topic on this point, it’s will be very interesting.

And for swivel bails straps it’s will be too, the swivel ball M1 are not well know, and in south of France we found some. Lost in combat from August and September 44.

fred

 

I agree with you Fred. I will open another post on this. I have asked others about thier low number helmets on if they were long or short strap and the buckles they had. These helmets are still being looked at in an attempt to figure outwhat happened and when.

[Ronnie]

3 hours ago, P-59A said:

So, in another post a chinstrap was brought up. One of the guys who chimmed in mentioned the color of the tack on the chin strap. He stated the tack should be a light OD color and not tan. I dug into that and the photographic record gives weight to this.    

 

P59 the color of the bar tacks on my straps is od. Not tan. The pictures do not show that.

[P-59A]

39 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

P59 the color of the bar tacks on my straps is od. Not tan. The pictures do not show that.

Thanks! It was hard to see. The OD is so light and the flash can blow things out. It's also just good to know when looking at a helmet.

[nightrider]

4 hours ago, frednizza said:

Mop, it’s not possible, on the late fixed bail it was no more the case, l bielieve shulter introduce them in end 1942 beginning 1943.

your helmet is a late swivel bails, the border is steel not inox of my view.

bad we don’t have the #.

fred

 

 

Hi Fred, 

Thanks for the information, however I have to disagree when you say its not possible.

Firstly how can a front seam be a "late swivel bails"? 

 

Also I have had a quick look online and found 3 other examples of swivel bails with the brass buckles... does this mean that these are all wrong too ?  

 

[P-59A]

M-1 helmets can be put put into time frames, but those time frames have transition periods. The first two helmets I posted here...

are M1C. The first is a McCord heat treat 10*9A front seam manganeese rim with a flat brass chinstrap buckle. A front seam manganeese rim is a 44 production. This is a transitional time when the last of the stainless steel rims were used up, but the tooling had not changed from the front seam application. The flat brass buckle is what was on hand when it was made.  The next M1C is a McCord heat treat 1162A rear seem manganeese rim with a brass raised bar chinstrap buckle. This is a later production helmet with an earlier buckle. That buckle was what was on hand when that helmet was made. Thier is no hard and fast rule on anyone thing. You have to look at everything and that will lead you to an area in time

[nightrider]

1 minute ago, P-59A said:

M-1 helmets can be put put into time frames, but those time frames have transition periods. The first two helmets I posted here...

are M1C. The first is a front seam manganeese rim with a flat brass chinstrap buckle. A front seam manganeese rim is a 44 production. This is a transitional time when the last of the stainless steel rims were not being used but the tooling had not changed from the front seam application. The flat brass buckle is what was on hand when it was made.  The next M1C is a rear seem manganeese rim with a brass raised bar chinstrap buckle. This is a later production helmet with an earlier buckle. That buckle was what was on hand when that helmet was made. Thier is no hard and fast rule on anyone thing. You have to look at everything and that will lead you to an area in time

I totally agree with you and this is what I'm trying to get at.  Just because something on a helmet is not the "textbook" way the helmets were made does not make them incorrect.  In times of war, when keeping waste to a minimum, using what was availible to get the job done might mean using earlier parts for later shells etc.  

 

I sometimes think many of us collectors forget that, im sure we have all been guilty of it at one point or another.  And I'm sure that a lot of genuine helmets get ignored simply because their not the "textbook" version of that helmet when in fact they are a true and original example of the manufacturing process using the parts that were available to them at that given time

 

Great comment ! 

[frednizza]

19 hours ago, nightrider said:

Hi Fred, 

Thanks for the information, however I have to disagree when you say its not possible.

Firstly how can a front seam be a "late swivel bails"? 

 

Also I have had a quick look online and found 3 other examples of swivel bails with the brass buckles... does this mean that these are all wrong too ?  

 

For the flat buckle it’s sure they was used on swivel bails, but not the early buckle like on your helmet.

on your helmet the buckle is like the one up on my picture.

fred

[frednizza]

18 hours ago, nightrider said:

I totally agree with you and this is what I'm trying to get at.  Just because something on a helmet is not the "textbook" way the helmets were made does not make them incorrect.  In times of war, when keeping waste to a minimum, using what was availible to get the job done might mean using earlier parts for later shells etc.  

 

I sometimes think many of us collectors forget that, im sure we have all been guilty of it at one point or another.  And I'm sure that a lot of genuine helmets get ignored simply because their not the "textbook" version of that helmet when in fact they are a true and original example of the manufacturing process using the parts that were available to them at that given time

 

Great comment ! 

Be careful, the buckle first type style fron this topics is in zinc, so made in 1943 so this one can be on a swivel bail helmet from 1943 but not not the type in brass.

for a short period the brass was considered as a strategic metal, so all part in this metal shall be given for the ammo ant other priority material, that said all helmet maker or strap marked must give back the buckle previously made. 

The zinc buckle appeared at this time for a short time after this time all buckles was made flat.

fred

[FRISCAN]

On 9/10/2023 at 10:17 PM, Latt said:

Hello all,

 

I was watching an auction recently and saw this 3rd ID Medic M1 that sold for $2800 USD + 17 - 20% auction fees. The blurb describes it as a “1 looker” which tends to be a red flag for me but I am interested in hearing others thoughts on the authenticity of the emblems  . The pictures are not the greatest. The emblem on the side looks like it was wiped away while the paint was wet and has an interesting patina to it (like it was covered in tape or a sticker in the shape of a spade). The description refers to a laundry number painted inside but doesn’t provide a clear shot.

description

“This helmet is absolutely a 1 looker as far as originality is concerned and has a liner produced by Capac Manufacturing company and has the veterans last name initial and last four of his ASN hand painted to the interior and is the same paint used to paint the Red Cross. The heat stamp is illegible to the shell but the straps are excellent. There is some minor corrosion to the front but nothing too serious. Some of the corrosion has lifted the paint to the front Red Cross that has been hand painted but it also solidified the originality of the cross to it, under the magnifying glass. It's quite clear that the cross has been there for 70 plus years. To the wearer's left side is a 3rd Division insignia painted that also has a great amount of wear and patina. The new owner will absolutely love this helmet. Very Good. “

Whoever did this is trying for nothing more.. than... more money... fake up and down...

The U.S. 3rd Infantry Division as far as I've seen in my 20+ years of studying the division in the Second World War? There is only one image that shows a man in the division wearing/bearing a Red Cross on his helmet and it's on the back. At best, really the only consistent thing about U.S. 3rd Infantry Division medics is 1. the absolute lack of medical insignia and the 2. ALL 3rd Division helmets bear TWO divisional insignia's not one. 😩

This "may've" been simply a medic's helmet but, not from the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division... either way? The value the helmet is ruined.

- FRISCAN

[nightrider]

3 hours ago, frednizza said:

For the flat buckle it’s sure they was used on swivel bails, but not the early buckle like on your helmet.

on your helmet the buckle is like the one up on my picture.

fred

Okay fred, 

 

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. 

 

You said its a late swivel bail, but it's front seam.

 

Its also hard to see from the pictures of the helmet if its raised or flat... to me it looks flat.

 

I've shown you 3 other pictures of swivel bails with the same buckle to try and show you that its possible.

 

We have also stated that there were discrepancies in the production to use up parts.

 

I'll just leave it there.  Thanks 

[TheGoose]

Raised brass buckles were definitely used on swivel bails.  See the photos below of a raised brass buckle on a 1050B McCord

 

[TheGoose]

And on this one with an illegible heat stamp.

 

[king802]

Front seam maganese rim. OD7 chinstraps with brass raised bar buckle. I have two helmets from the same source and both are identical configuration (as was every helmet found in this batch) They all had early liners with them. 
When it comes to helmet components then anything is possible.