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M1909 Pistol Belt


TrenchRaider1918
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TrenchRaider1918

This M1909 Pistol Belt was equipped with the M1909 Revolver as stated in Dorsey's book. He mentions they held .38 caliber rounds, if so was it that pistol only or did these find their way into WWI with the M1917 revolvers? Could they hold the half moon clips? My knowledge is hazy on the two revolvers, what was the first .45 revolver? One thing I noticed was on the inside of the eagle snaps reads "Pat. July 30 1907" instead of the Mills Military Fastener on most eagle snap equipment. Also that this model by Mills does not feature a top row of grommets as opposed to the nickel plated type that is assumed to be Russell manufacture.

 

Thanks for looking and your input,

 

Carl

 

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New Romantic

That is a beautiful belt Carl, I'm glad you were able to get it thumbsup.gif !

 

The belt is the M1910. I'm not sure if they made their way to France, maybe some officers or ncos may have had them.

 

The patent info on the female snaps were used on Mills belts from 1907- the early 1910's. As you mentioned Mills M1910 belts have the "Mills Military Fastener" wording on the inside of the snap. I don't know when Mills stopped using the patent date, maybe 1911(?).

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TrenchRaider1918
That is a beautiful belt Carl, I'm glad you were able to get it thumbsup.gif !

 

The belt is the M1910. I'm not sure if they made their way to France, maybe some officers or ncos may have had them.

 

The patent info on the female snaps were used on Mills belts from 1907- the early 1910's. As you mentioned Mills M1910 belts have the "Mills Military Fastener" wording on the inside of the snap. I don't know when Mills stopped using the patent date, maybe 1911(?).

 

Thanks Frankie, but read page 51 of Dorsey's book, he titles it the M1910 Revolver Cartridge Belt calibre .45, but in the description he switches it to M1909 for .38 caliber and no mention of .45 caliber. Is there a M1909? Looks like someone needs to write a new book! ;)

 

I also checked my 2nd Pattern M1903 dismounted cartridge belt and the female snaps bear the same markings, so we can assume those were made post July 30, 1907 correct?

 

I'm sure you'll show me up with a M1903 Revolver Cartridge Belt soon right?

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New Romantic
Thanks Frankie, but read page 51 of Dorsey's book, he titles it the M1910 Revolver Cartridge Belt calibre .45, but in the description he switches it to M1909 for .38 caliber and no mention of .45 caliber. Is there a M1909? Looks like someone needs to write a new book! ;)

 

I also checked my 2nd Pattern M1903 dismounted cartridge belt and the female snaps bear the same markings, so we can assume those were made post July 30, 1907 correct?

 

I'm sure you'll show me up with a M1903 Revolver Cartridge Belt soon right?

 

I just looked at Dorsey's text and you're right, he does call it the M1909! Dorsey does have many errors in his book. So what is the correct designation of this belt then? Elsewhere I've seen it id'd as the M1910.

 

To find out when the snaps were last marked with patent date, we'd have to look at items made b/w 1910-1912 and see what turns up. I used to have a 1913 dated cartridge belt and I recall the snaps were marked "Mills Military Fastener". You may see a mix of patent marked snaps and Mills marked snaps though, I assume Mills would have had a good quantity of patent marked snaps and used those up as they were on hand.

 

Yes, my M1903 belt is on layaway now, I'll have it in two weeks. It will be a great addition to my 1904-1906 officer service coat.

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As Frankie pointed out this belt was made for the 45 Colt M1909 ctg (a 45 LC with bigger rim better suitable for the simultaneous ejecting of the Colt M1909 revolver). Often M19..s are collectors references so I prefer the denomination used in Mills catalog: 4-pocket revolver belt.

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world war I nerd

There was a earlier pistol belt for the .38 caliber Revolver that was designated (by the Army) as the:

 

"Cartridge Belt, Model of 1903 for Colt .38 Cal. Revolver"

 

This belt had eight smaller pockets made to hold the .38 caliber revolver cartridges and they were made in both khaki and olive drab and featured the rimless glove fasteners.

 

When the army adopted the more powerful Colt .45 caliber revolver in 1909 a new revolver cartridge belt with larger cartridge pockets was concieved to carry the new .45 caliber ammunition. The new belt had only four cartridge pockets and was designated as the:

 

"Cartridge belt, Model of 1910 for Colt .45 Caliber Revolver"

 

These belts were made only in olive drab and used the improved rimless eagle button fasteners

 

The belt was capable of handling any of the three styles of regulation revolver holsters; the .38 caliber revolver holster and the .45 caliber 'short barrel' or 'long barel' holster.

 

It's unlikely (but anything is possible) that the belt did not see service in WW I because the M1912 Pistol Belts would have been in production for well over five years by the time any Doughboy went overseas.

 

But the early .38 and .45 caliber revolvers would almost certainly have seen service in France (mostly in rear areas)due to the acute shortage of the .45 automatic and M1917 revolvers. Many troops shipped out with a new holster and nothing to put in it.

 

At the front any side arm along with field glasses and wrist watches were prized possession and difficult to replace. It was common for wouned Doughboys to pass these items along to their buddies, rather than risk loosing them at a casualty clearing stattion or field hospital.

 

The photo showe soldiers entraining for the border wearing the early eight pocket .38 caliber revolver cartridge belt circa 1912

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TrenchRaider1918

Thanks, everyone.

 

Artu44 or anyone, do you have an example of the holster for the M1909 in .45 caliber? I see 1909 dated ones for .38, are the .45s the rare ones? Where can I get a copy of these Mills equipment catalogs and manuals?

 

Also I noticed that the 4-pocket Mills belt in artu44's catalog post shows a top row of grommets, but mine is in absence of those, could this be a variation?

 

Sorry for stretching this thread out,

 

Carl

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New Romantic

Exceptional info WWI Nerd, I see you've been impressing quite a few forum members with your knowledge thumbsup.gif .

 

Carl, your belt is the early version of the M1910. Later on Mills added the upper row of grommets. Pretty cool, maybe you'll have to hunt out the other variation?

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Thanks, everyone.

 

Artu44 or anyone, do you have an example of the holster for the M1909 in .45 caliber? I see 1909 dated ones for .38, are the .45s the rare ones? Where can I get a copy of these Mills equipment catalogs and manuals?

 

Also I noticed that the 4-pocket Mills belt in artu44's catalog post shows a top row of grommets, but mine is in absence of those, could this be a variation?

 

Sorry for stretching this thread out,

 

Carl

Well, there are two "kind" of M1909 holsters being the first adopted for the Colt M1909 revolver and the second for the US M1917 revolver 45ACP. The first was made only by Rock Island Arsenal and dates are 1909-1910-1911 while the second was made only by Graton&Knight in 1917&1918. These holsters are identical except for the pitch of stitching a bit coarser in G&K holsters. Value is the real difference, the RIA worths about two times the G&K being obviously much scarcer.

Of course they didn't throw away nothing so it's possible this belt saw service during WWI with an M1917 revolver and a G&K holster, anyway you have to look after a RIA holster to have a proper rig.

A reprint of Mills catalog appears periodically on ebay at nice price.

Top row grommets is the last variation of the 4pocket belt. Early ones have no grommets.

In the pic a RIA1909 and my RIA1911 markings

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  • 10 months later...

I have seen a few examples of the (M1909 - M1910) four pocket revolver belts without the top row of grommets, so when i came across this example i had to do some research before i made the purchase. Thanks to this thead i can now identify that it was a later made version. In one of my books it states that the four pocket M1910 belt was made until 1912.

 

(In the photo, the soldier on the far right in the back has what looks to be a m1910 revolver belt, please correct me if i am wrong) Hope ths helps, David

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Just to add to the naming confusion. From the "Infantry Equipment" manual.

Tim

I think these names would be the ones to be used as references avoiding collectors slang.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

This was with a 1909 Colt 45 New Service revolver when I got it (the revolver was also for sale) but neither myself not the seller realized at the time that this was the original belt for this weapon.

 

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