I’m pretty sure these class W-1 wings are not authentic, but seeking opinions of those who know more than I do.

[Noelle]

The feathers look very odd, the scroll looks sloppy, the 1 looks too wide…. I can identify the standard lozenge wings from 10 paces, and could identify a W-6 at this point thanks to having one, but the other classes I’m not so sure of yet.  So I defer to you fine folks since my coffers runneth dry for my exhibit right now and I can’t afford needless risks for a while.

[bschwartz]

Well the base wing looks to be a repro of a Meyer pelican beak pattern so that's a bad sign to begin with.  The scroll on the shield looks wrong as well.  I don't believe any of the class wings used this Meyer pattern wing as its base.

[Noelle]

4 hours ago, bschwartz said:

Well the base wing looks to be a repro of a Meyer pelican beak pattern so that's a bad sign to begin with.  The scroll on the shield looks wrong as well.  I don't believe any of the class wings used this Meyer pattern wing as its base.

 

So possibly not even a genuine base.  Ouch.  I thought that perhaps another genuine wing, though the wrong one, was used, but if even the base is possibly fake, then that’s just salt on an open wound.

 

Is there any good and quick resource to find out the different wing patterns?  I don’t know how to describe then when one looks wrong to begin with, like this one.

 

That is the sloppiest scroll I’ve seen.  Aside from the ends, the engraving (which obviously shouldn’t be engraving) is shaky.

 

I’ve been surprised at how often WASP wings auctioned even by reputable places end up being fakes.  Some I’m able to be 100% sure of beyond all doubt—always the lozenge—though with the shields, I still doubt my own judgement and would prefer to ask. At this point, I’ve seen more fakes being auctioned than real ones, which just makes me feel beyond fortunate to own the ones that I do.

 

I’m going to see what I can find about this Meyer pelican beak pattern.  

 

Thanks, Bob.

[5thwingmarty]

The book "More Silver Wings, Pinks & Greens" has photos of real WASP class wings and identifies the known base wing makers for the wings shown.  Although the first two classes look like they used Gemsco pattern base wings with cut down shields, the base wings used were actually made shieldless as also used to make cadet cap badges and and other two-piece wings with the attached center devices.

 

Marty

[Noelle]

On 7/14/2023 at 7:57 PM, 5thwingmarty said:

The book "More Silver Wings, Pinks & Greens" has photos of real WASP class wings and identifies the known base wing makers for the wings shown.  Although the first two classes look like they used Gemsco pattern base wings with cut down shields, the base wings used were actually made shieldless as also used to make cadet cap badges and and other two-piece wings with the attached center devices.

 

Marty

 

Thank you!  I’m going to look for this book!

[5thwingmarty]

I should have noted that the book only has photos of the fronts of the non-Josten wings.  It is also my understanding that class 43-W3 used both Amico and LGB "pelican beak" pattern pilot wings as the base wings, but the book only notes the LGB wing.

 

Marty

[bschwartz]

And a quick note on the pelican beak wings, the LGB wing has the standard pelican beak shape that was used by other manufacturers like Amico and even Meyer.  However, Meyer has two pelican beak wings.  One with that extra little peak in the middle and the more standard no peak design.  The only other manufacturer to have that little peak is Gemsco with their very late to post WW2 wings (my feeling on timeframe, still need documentation).  The Gemsco wings are much larger than the similar pattern peaked Meyer wings.  If you look at my AAF pilot wing page you will find many other pelican beak pattern wings.  http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/usaafpilot.shtml

 

LGB pelican beak - http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/pilot/balfouraafpilot.shtml

 

Meyer with the extra peak - http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/pilot/meyeraafpilot.shtml

 

Meyer without the peak - http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/commandpilot/meyeraafcommandpilotsmshld.shtml

 

Gemsco with the extra peak - http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/aircrew/gemscopatternaafcrew.shtml

 

Amico - http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/pilot/amicoaafpilot.shtml

[jeff41st]

"Extra peak" is also on the LeVelle & Co. air crew wings

 

http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/aircrew/jfaircrew.shtml

 

 

 

 

 

[bschwartz]

1 hour ago, jeff41st said:

"Extra peak" is also on the LeVelle & Co. air crew wings

 

http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/aircrew/jfaircrew.shtml

 

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent catch Jeff.  Totally spaced that one even though you sent it to me for my site.  My bad.  It's getting hard to remember everything that's up there!

[Noelle]

The listing was updated to reflect post-WWII repro, and closed at $350: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/154915609_wwii-type-postwar-319th-w1-womens-army-pilot-wasp-sterling-wing

[The Rooster]

WASP items are so heavily faked because there is money in it.

Considering that there were only a relatively few WASP Pilots,

their authentic wings and gear and such are very rare.

Consider that hundreds of thousands of Pilots earned their wings during ww2.

1100 is a small number, comparatively

 

Between 1942 and 1944, more than 25,000 women applied to become a WASP, but only around 1,100 completed training and earned their silver pilot's wings, according to historian Katherine Sharp Landdeck. Thirty-eight WASPs died in service of their nation.

[Noelle]

8 hours ago, The Rooster said:

WASP items are so heavily faked because there is money in it.

Considering that there were only a relatively few WASP Pilots,

their authentic wings and gear and such are very rare.

Consider that hundreds of thousands of Pilots earned their wings during ww2.

1100 is a small number, comparatively

 

Between 1942 and 1944, more than 25,000 women applied to become a WASP, but only around 1,100 completed training and earned their silver pilot's wings, according to historian Katherine Sharp Landdeck. Thirty-eight WASPs died in service of their nation.

 

Correct, hence why I constantly try to learn more.  So far I haven’t been saddled with anything fake, but I’ve had to deliver the news to someone that her wings were.  I have three, including Elizabeth Gardner’s class wins, as well as two discharge pins, which were so tiny I’m surprised they weren’t all lost.

 

There were 1,102 WASP in total, though a couple died before the WASP formed, and another one died after finishing the program, but before the graduation ceremony.  Three of the women who died during are buried a city over from me, and I visit the graves of all nine buried there.

[Scott C.]

Noelle, I have learned much from your postings and diligence, and also from those that have responded to your queries.   

[The Rooster]

7 hours ago, Noelle said:

 

Correct, hence why I constantly try to learn more.  So far I haven’t been saddled with anything fake, but I’ve had to deliver the news to someone that her wings were.  I have three, including Elizabeth Gardner’s class wins, as well as two discharge pins, which were so tiny I’m surprised they weren’t all lost.

 

There were 1,102 WASP in total, though a couple died before the WASP formed, and another one died after finishing the program, but before the graduation ceremony.  Three of the women who died during are buried a city over from me, and I visit the graves of all nine buried there.

 

 Flying and learning to fly was very risky during WW2. I've read over 15,000 were killed here in the states in training. Pilots crews and instructors.

My Icon picture is one of them. My Uncle.....Killed in N.C. U.S.A. December 6th, 1943. 19 years old.

[Noelle]

15 hours ago, Scott C. said:

Noelle, I have learned much from your postings and diligence, and also from those that have responded to your queries.   

 

I’m so glad to hear that!!  When I started in I think June of last year, I quickly realized how many fakes there were out there, and various sources have conflicting info.  When I posted here, someone did say that the more info there is out there, the easier it is for frauds to make fake things easier.  But as I see it, it’s better for collectors to have the knowledge even if it means the frauds might get some pointers since it’s one thing to know a thing, and another to successfully replicate it, and if collectors know what to look for too, it’s easier to spot those fakes.

 

I think the most useful bits of info for me have been the consistent weight of the lozenge wings since stamping compresses the metal consistently while casting leaves room for weight variation, and the way the glaze has worn over the years that hasn’t been successfully replicated.

[Noelle]

11 hours ago, The Rooster said:

 

 Flying and learning to fly was very risky during WW2. I've read over 15,000 were killed here in the states in training. Pilots crews and instructors.

My Icon picture is one of them. My Uncle.....Killed in N.C. U.S.A. December 6th, 1943. 19 years old.

 

Practically still a baby.  I own a logbook of a male pilot in training from 1943, and how quickly he was solo’d…90 minutes.  I need to see if I can figure out some more about him.

 

This comment and your earlier one in the thread made me curious about something.  I recall a specific one of the 38 who died who finished training, and was on the way to graduation when her plane crashed and she died. Since she didn’t graduate, she’s still considered a trainee.  Yt she’s one of the 38….  So I did some digging.

 

There were 38 women who trained and graduated as WAFS, and then 1,074 women who trained and graduated as WASP.  The WAFS were grandfathered into the WASP.*  These 1,102 are considered to be WASP, including Cornelia Fort, who died before the WASP.  There were 38 who died…but this is where I wanted to understand more.  Turns out that only 27 of that 1,102 died during service.  The remaining 11 were officially just trainees.  This is according to WASP Byrd Howell Granger’s book On Final Approach, the most dry book there is on the WASP, and my favorite (where else will you find out what color socks and underwear they wore under their tan trousers?!).  I’m glad that those who died as trainees weren’t left out of the count for not having graduated.

 

When it comes to male deaths, we always hear about the soldiers, the ones who graduated basic.  We never hear about the trainees, though we should.