Part of a M1938 tanker helmet found at B17 crash location

[Centurion1982]

Some of the parts I acquired of the B-17G (42-3488) and have already cleaned

[Bodes]

It's my understanding that the Canadian army was minus armored units when they declared war on Germany.....Consequently the majority of these (armored units) who fought in Europe were equipped solely with American tanks....And since the biggest share of Canadian war materials went on to be used by England, I'd say there's a fairly good chance they (Canadians) used the M38 tanker helmets....Bodes

[Centurion1982]

11 minutes ago, Bodes said:

It's my understanding that the Canadian army was minus armored units when they declared war on Germany.....Consequently the majority of these (armored units) who fought in Europe were equipped solely with American tanks....And since the biggest share of Canadian war materials went on to be used by England, I'd say there's a fairly good chance they (Canadians) used the M38 tanker helmets....Bodes

Could be, although I have never seen a picture of Canadian Armoured crew wearing a US M38 tanker helmet in Europe in WWII. Have you seen such a picture? It would be interesting to see.

 

The MKII helmet with the M38 tanker helmet used as a liner which I have in my collection is named to someone from a Canadian Infantry regiment. The side flaps from the M38 have been cut off. This is the only one I have ever seen. I never saw a picture of Canadian Infantry soldiers or Armoured crew wearing US tanker helmets. Would love to see a picture some day.

[Bodes]

11 minutes ago, Centurion1982 said:

Could be, although I have never seen a picture of Canadian Armoured crew wearing a US M38 tanker helmet in Europe in WWII. Have you seen such a picture? It would be interesting to see.

 

The MKII helmet with the M38 tanker helmet used as a liner which I have in my collection is named to someone from a Canadian Infantry regiment. The side flaps from the M38 have been cut off. This is the only one I have ever seen. I never saw a picture of Canadian Infantry soldiers or Armoured crew wearing US tanker helmets. Would love to see a picture some day.

Major-General B.M. Hoffmeister, General Officer Commanding 5th Canadian Armoured Division, in the Sherman tank "Vancouver" Location: Castrocielo, Italy (vicinity) Date: 26. May 1944

 

 

 

[Bodes]

[earlymb]

Maybe the Canadian Shermans were delivered fully equipped, so including radio's and crew helmets? But I must say I find this theory of a tank having been there a bit far-fetched.

 

I think it would not have been unthinkable for a member of a flight crew to use a tanker helmet though, for the simple reason that the official flak helmets (with suspension) weren't available yet, and the M1 shell would be uncomfortable/impractical to wear over a leather flight helmet, without a suspension. It does however feat neatly over the M38 helmet, which, even more importantly, has the same earphones as the leather flight helmet and I guess could easily be modified to connect an oxygen mask.

 

Thus, you would have a helmet that offers both protection and access to the comm system. Official? No. Would it do the job? Probably yes, with some minor modifications. It's too bad no other parts/remains were found to confirm 100% an M38 helmet was aboard the airplane.

[Bodes]

14 hours ago, earlymb said:

Maybe the Canadian Shermans were delivered fully equipped, so including radio's and crew helmets? But I must say I find this theory of a tank having been there a bit far-fetched.

 

I think it would not have been unthinkable for a member of a flight crew to use a tanker helmet though, for the simple reason that the official flak helmets (with suspension) weren't available yet, and the M1 shell would be uncomfortable/impractical to wear over a leather flight helmet, without a suspension. It does however feat neatly over the M38 helmet, which, even more importantly, has the same earphones as the leather flight helmet and I guess could easily be modified to connect an oxygen mask.

 

Thus, you would have a helmet that offers both protection and access to the comm system. Official? No. Would it do the job? Probably yes, with some minor modifications. It's too bad no other parts/remains were found to confirm 100% an M38 helmet was aboard the airplane.

One thing that hasn't been discussed is the wearer would have to have provisions for an oxygen mask....As the M38 was not designed with this feature, one would have to wear a canvas or leather flight cap underneath the tanker helmet....This could prove to be rather cumbersome.....Bodes

 

BTW...Here's a site for a USAF museum featuring WW2 flight gear including those for protecting the head....Nothing is said about an M38, but they do discuss the M-1 which of course was an improvisation and not specifically designed for such purpose....

 

Bomber Crew Protection

[phantomfixer]

A-10 mask with Juliet strap would work with the tanker helmet…

[Bodes]

9 minutes ago, phantomfixer said:

A-10 mask with Juliet strap would work with the tanker helmet…

Was a short-lived item that may not have been available in late 1944....Bodes

 

A-10 mask w/Juliet strap

[Centurion1982]

This oxygen mask which was found at the crash site, looks like a A-10 mask. I will try to get a clearer picture of the oxygen mask from the movie of the excavation on the DVD.

[Mikeym_us]

On 6/15/2023 at 10:19 PM, P-59A said:

 December of 1943 is when the M3's reach the ETO. The B-17 crashed in Dec of 43' so odds are that crew did not have M3's. Will a tanker fit under a M1 pot? I don't have a tanker and have no idea.

Actually the Tanker helmet will fit in a M1 shell. But not in a Flak helmet since the Flak helmet had a built in suspension which fit over the leather flight headgear.

[P-59A]

1 hour ago, Mikeym_us said:

Actually the Tanker helmet will fit in a M1 shell. But not in a Flak helmet since the Flak helmet had a built in suspension which fit over the leather flight headgear.

Thanks Mikeym, Now the standing question is...does the photographic record support M1 lids being worn over tanker helmets by aircrews. I have not seen any photos of this.

[P-59A]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:12 PM, Bodes said:

Was a short-lived item that may not have been available in late 1944....Bodes

 

A-10 mask w/Juliet strap

Hey Bodes! A quick look at B-17 bomber crews will show a mix of gear. Even as late as 1945 you will see the Blue Bunny F-1 heated flight suit in use along with  the F-2 and F-3. The A-10 and A-14 masks out of the box had extra parts for attaching the mask to a flying helmet  . The A-10 Jollet strap attachment made it so it could be worn without a leather or cloth flying helmet. This July 1943 use of oxygen and oxygen masks it clear in the last paragraph that the A-14 would replace the A-10 eventually. I think its safe to say the A-10 was in common use in Dec 1943 even if it was a limited standard item.

[Mikeym_us]

10 minutes ago, P-59A said:

Hey Bodes! A quick look at B-17 bomber crews will show a mix of gear. Even as late as 1945 you will see the Blue Bunny F-1 heated flight suit in use along with  the F-2 and F-3. The A-10 and A-14 masks out of the box had extra parts for attaching the mask to a flying helmet  . The A-10 Jollet strap attachment made it so it could be worn without a leather or cloth flying helmet. This July 1943 use of oxygen and oxygen masks it clear in the last paragraph that the A-14 would replace the A-10 eventually. I think its safe to say the A-10 was in common use in Dec 1943 even if it was a limited standard item.

The A10 was the mask with the balloon on it right?

[P-59A]

Combat Flying Equipment by Sweeting states the A-10 was limited standard in July 1943 but not obsolete untill 1946.

[P-59A]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:16 PM, Centurion1982 said:

This oxygen mask which was found at the crash site, looks like a A-10 mask. I will try to get a clearer picture of the oxygen mask from the movie of the excavation on the DVD.

It's an A-10, No need to dig deeper.

[Bodes]

9 hours ago, P-59A said:

It's an A-10, No need to dig deeper.

I wouldn't get too excited yet as the blob in the picture is indiscernible by the one who took the footage.....Appears it may be a variation of the A-10 like perhaps an A-10a.....Even so, we haven't 100% proven the tanker piece wasn't introduced to the site by another source such as a US or Canadian soldier....Don't forget American troops (and perhaps Canadian ones as well) also used the tanker helmet while riding motorcycles....Bodes

 

[phantomfixer]

If a Sherman tank commander can wear an A-11, I don't see where an aircraft turret gunner could not wear a M-38...

 

not being overly familiar with the M-38 I googled it...and could see where the possibility lies where a rigger could easily attach snaps for any variation oxygen mask used by the flyer...but more likely the M-38 was worn overtop of a standard flight helmet rig...

 

having found an A-10 at the crash site doesn't prove the gunner wore a M-38 or didn't...lack of photos doesn't prove anything either...there is always the possibility some young gunner was ahead of his time... 

 

I think, and just my opinion, that if an archaeologist found part of a M38 helmet buried within the crash site, an assumption/argument could be made that it was on the plane at the time of the crash... 

 

 

[P-59A]

5 hours ago, phantomfixer said:

If a Sherman tank commander can wear an A-11, I don't see where an aircraft turret gunner could not wear a M-38...

 

not being overly familiar with the M-38 I googled it...and could see where the possibility lies where a rigger could easily attach snaps for any variation oxygen mask used by the flyer...but more likely the M-38 was worn overtop of a standard flight helmet rig...

 

having found an A-10 at the crash site doesn't prove the gunner wore a M-38 or didn't...lack of photos doesn't prove anything either...there is always the possibility some young gunner was ahead of his time... 

 

I think, and just my opinion, that if an archaeologist found part of a M38 helmet buried within the crash site, an assumption/argument could be made that it was on the plane at the time of the crash... 

 

 

Bodes and I are just running down a list of things to be considered. As he stated earlier in the thread he is playing the Devils Advocate on this exersize. All things must be considered. If this were dug by trained archaeologist the part in question would have been considered in the context in wich it was found. IE: Had it been found 3 feet down intermixed with the remains of the ball turret that would give you context and reason to draw a likley hypothosis or conclusion VS it being found on  the ground 10 feet from the impact zone might lead to another hypothosis or conclusion. As it stands right now we are just establishing the likleyhood or possibility of this part being flown instead of driven to the crash site.

[P-59A]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:16 PM, Centurion1982 said:

This oxygen mask which was found at the crash site, looks like a A-10 mask. I will try to get a clearer picture of the oxygen mask from the movie of the excavation on the DVD.

We can rule out it being an A-9, the cheek flaps are different and we can rule out the A-14 as they did not have the nose stamp.

[P-59A]

A-10 OXYGEN MASK & JULIET HEAD STRAP. I didn't want to dig through my box's looking for this. In this configuration the A-10 could have been worn under a tanker helmet, no modification needed. Pictured it the early A-10. That nose strap was normaly cut off by the aircrews.The later A-10 did not have the nose strap.

[Centurion1982]

It’s a A-10 mask

[Centurion1982]

It looks like there was found another type of mask as well

[P-59A]

6 minutes ago, Centurion1982 said:

It looks like there was found another type of mask as well

That is the A-8 oxygen mask

 

[P-59A]

Link to A-8 oxygen  mask https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=70d4aa0b484c285cJmltdHM9MTY4NzMwNTYwMCZpZ3VpZD0xZjJkZDU2Mi1jYmVmLTZmYjktMWQ4My1kYWY5Y2ExNDZlMDUmaW5zaWQ9NTI1OA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=1f2dd562-cbef-6fb9-1d83-daf9ca146e05&psq=a-8+oxygen+mask&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudXNtaWxpdGFyaWFmb3J1bS5jb20vZm9ydW1zL2luZGV4LnBocD8vdG9waWMvMzEyMzE3LW94eWdlbi1tYXNrLWE4Yi8&ntb=1     As I said before it is common to see a mix of gear being flown in period photographs. Just because a newer version of something came out did not mean all theaters recived them ASAP. Gear was used untill it became unusable and that is why you see a mix of gear in late war photos.  One of the items in my colection is a cut down F-1 Blue Bunny suit. Its the bottom half. When that F-1 failed to be a useable flight item it was cut down at the waist and the bottom half became the bottom half of long johns, most likley used by ground crews.