Wwii Japanese Naval Ensign (Battleship Nagato?)

[blademan]

Greetings,

A good friend of mine recently passed and his estate gave me this flag.  

 

The flag is wool hand sewn, and huge. Too big for w bedroom wall. I dont have the actual size yet as i dont have a place to out it out for picures and measurments. 

 

The flag has Kangi and a joint intellegence stamp on it. One our members was kind enough to provide a translation. 

 

"The characters are ``軍艦旗四巾'' and are thought to be ``Battleship flag, size 130cm≒51inch''.

 

Im not sure, but I suspect this may be a Battleship Nagato ensign that was captured by us forces at the end of the war. I have read that the contents of the Nagato's flag room were capyured intact snd at least 12 engsigns of this size range were in the group. 

 

I am working with the estate to.see if there iis any documentstion associated with the flag. 

 

I will provide better pictures once i can get her laid out and photo graphed. 

 

Would love to hear from those more versed in this field.

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[Ivydiv]

Very interesting. Looking forward to the pictures. Dave

[sundance]

Anxious to see it also. it must be huge. It looks like the stamp says "passed by". would that be a US stamp allowing it to be sent/taken home?

[doyler]

10 minutes ago, sundance said:

Anxious to see it also. it must be huge. It looks like the stamp says "passed by". would that be a US stamp allowing it to be sent/taken home?

 

 

Usually a Navy stamp that it was passed for intelligence value etc and released. Seen it used on USN and USMC captured items that were captured and then approved for release as a souvenir. 

[Eric Queen]

All I can say from the images provided is the translation is correct. 

 

軍艦旗 (gunkanki) = Battleship Flag

 

四巾 (yohaba) = 130 cm

 

 

[blademan]

Hi,

I found a 9'x11' tarp to toss the flag on. This was the first time I opened it up. You can see the size comparison between the flag and tarp.

 

The flag is about ~69"×103" (175cmX261cm). Actually thought it was bigger. 

 

There is an additional Kangi that i missed the first time around. Would apreciate help with translation. 

 

There are stains and tears. It really could use some conservation work. 

 

Wondering if this is a Nagato ensign. I would bet yes.  Of the 12  IJN battleships built, the Nagato was the only floating at the end of the war. Unfortuantly, it was sunk during the Bikini Atoll nuclear bomb tests. 

 

The question that comes to mind is would this size of ensign have been used on other than battleships?

 

Would love to hear your  insight.

 

Thank you 

 

[Mr. Bushido]

Hello.

 

The newly discovered character is "（ 借 ）".

 

It is unclear how this character relates to the flag, but the meaning of the character itself is "to borrow."

 

I hope my post helps you verify this.

[blademan]

Mr Bushido,

Your input has been of great help,

 

It will be interesting to find out how the new character fits into the story. 

 

Thank you!

[DiGilio]

軍艦旗, as its own word, should just mean "naval ensign," without implying a specific type of ship. 

 

Separately, 軍艦 (gunkan) appears to have been a term used by the Imperial Japanese Navy in the classification of their ships. Rather than meaning battleship specifically, it should carry the meaning of "warship". Battleships (戦艦) were considered gunkan, but so were cruisers, aircraft carriers, submarine tenders, and a few other types of ship.

 

Anyway, Japanese wikipedia has a chart for the use of different sized 軍艦旗 by the Imperial Navy:

 

３幅 - Destroyer, submarine, coastal defense ship use. Also, use on battleships or cruisers for normal sailing or as a battle flag. 

４幅 - Cruiser use. Use on battleships for normal sailing or as a battle flag. Also, on small military vessels for ceremonial use.

６幅 - Normal battleship use. Or for use by cruisers for official ceremonies, celebrations, or naval reviews.

８幅 - Battleship use for official ceremonies, celebrations or naval reviews. 

 

Also, it looks like 巾/幅 was used by the navy to represent a non-typical measurement. One website says 1幅 represents 2尺2寸 (~66.66cm) which seems to fit.

 

Unless there is solid documentation, I dont think there is really any reason to believe the flag came from specifically the Nagato. 

 

[blademan]

35 minutes ago, DiGilio said:

軍艦旗, as its own word, should just mean "naval ensign," without implying a specific type of ship. 

 

Separately, 軍艦 (gunkan) appears to have been a term used by the Imperial Japanese Navy in the classification of their ships. Rather than meaning battleship specifically, it should carry the meaning of "warship". Battleships (戦艦) were considered gunkan, but so were cruisers, aircraft carriers, submarine tenders, and a few other types of ship.

 

Anyway, Japanese wikipedia has a chart for the use of different sized 軍艦旗 by the Imperial Navy:

 

３幅 - Destroyer, submarine, coastal defense ship use. Also, use on battleships or cruisers for normal sailing or as a battle flag. 

４幅 - Cruiser use. Use on battleships for normal sailing or as a battle flag. Also, on small military vessels for ceremonial use.

６幅 - Normal battleship use. Or for use by cruisers for official ceremonies, celebrations, or naval reviews.

８幅 - Battleship use for official ceremonies, celebrations or naval reviews. 

 

Also, it looks like 巾/幅 was used by the navy to represent a non-typical measurement. One website says 1幅 represents 2尺2寸 (~66.66cm) which seems to fit.

 

Unless there is solid documentation, I dont think there is really any reason to believe the flag came from specifically the Nagato. 

 

Thank You! Excellent info. I would agree,  it seems this flag could have been used on a wide variety of warships for various occasions. Association with the Nagato would be wishful thinking considering tour new info. 

 

Im not sure which of the aize designations this flag would fit in. I think you were referring to a number 2 but the 66.66cm doesnt match one of the flaga measurements. 

 

Thanks again

 

[Salvage Sailor]

Aloha Everyone,

 

I will mention that the IJN NAGATO was taken as a prize in 1945 and towed to Bikini Atoll for the Able & Baker atomic blast tests during Operation Crossroads (along with the PRINZ EUGEN) and she was 'liberated' of many of her contents before the testing by the USN Salvage forces and other sailors who boarded the battleship.  I've seen several very unique items attributed to the NAGATO pilfered, uh, collected by these sailors and decades later found in their estates.

 

I have several unpublished photos of NAGATO in my Salvage archive taken at Bikini by the towing & assessment personnel.

 

There ya go...

 

[DiGilio]

Sorry, the measurement I gave for 幅 is wrong. Regarding the sizes, there are multiple explanations online for what 1幅 equals in regard to these ensigns (36cm?, 45cm?, 67cm?) and whether it is measuring the length or height, but the dimensions of the flags themselves appear to be generally known and yours is consistent with a 4幅 one. The confusions seems to come from the fact that if you look up 幅 in the dictionary you get "a unit of measurement for cloth 30-36cm," or something like that, which doesn't correspond with the known sizes of these flags.

 

It looks like the correct measurement is 1幅 = between 43 and 45cm or so. These flags are still used by the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense forces and a Japanese website quotes a book saying that the regulations are 1幅 equals 430mm (+/- 10mm). However, in the past this might have been slightly different. It appears 幅 is referring to 中幅 chuhaba medium-width bolts of cloth (~45cm) and the number of these needed to make the flag.

 

1幅 = 43-45cm, 2幅 = 86-90cm, etc. This is measuring the height of the flag (shorter side). Aspect ratio should be 2:3 so that will give you the length of the other side of the flag (longer side). For simplicity, assuming １幅 is 43cm, then ４幅 = 172 x 258cm. 

 

All this being said, I am certainly no expert in traditional / archaic Japanese measuring units. But as I said, your flag is consistent with ４幅 flags.

 

[aerialbridge]

If it were mine I'd contact the nearest Japanese consulate or the embassy in DC and see if they could put you in touch with any official navy historical organizations in Japan.  Nothing to lose.

[tdurbinmas]

I know a little about IJN ensign flags learned from Japanese militaria expert Nick Komiya. The flag you have up for discussion here is a size”4” ensign. The Japanese numbered their flags according to the number of strips of material that comprised the width. A size 4 would been appropriate for any large ship for everyday use. The largest size ensign #8 was the biggest flag flown. I have attached photos and descriptions provided by Nick Komiya that provide a good guideline on the various IJN ensigns. I have all the sizes from 1.5 to 6. Still looking for an 8! 

[DiGilio]

40 minutes ago, tdurbinmas said:

I know a little about IJN ensign flags learned from Japanese militaria expert Nick Komiya. The flag you have up for discussion here is a size”4” ensign. The Japanese numbered their flags according to the number of strips of material that comprised the width. A size 4 would been appropriate for any large ship for everyday use. The largest size ensign #8 was the biggest flag flown. I have attached photos and descriptions provided by Nick Komiya that provide a good guideline on the various IJN ensigns. I have all the sizes from 1.5 to 6. Still looking for an 8! 

 

 

This is the most authoritative information Ive seen. So Id go by this.

 

A number of years ago an 8幅 size pre-WW2 flag from the Battleship Asahi was returned to Japan by a Marine. He had "taken" it at Yokosuka from the Battleship Mikasa memorial ship! Back when it was neglected. And all those years he had thought it was Mikasa's flag. 

 

I imagine a lot of these flags have a somewhat similar story in that they were taken on land during occupation, port facilities and such, with any ties to the ships that flew them having been lost or muddled from the start. This must have been especially true for the small/medium sized flags that any number of ships could have flown. There are a number of these flags in Japanese museums, including from ships that were later sunk. So beyond whatever was in port-side supply facilities for use, there were a number of additional ones floating around somewhere on land. They also show up on Japanese auction websites. 

[blademan]

Wow! Wonderful info gentlemen.  This helps a lot. I never would have guessed this their were ensign sizes for difference occasions. 

 

Has anyone else seen or know why the "to borrow" kanji in on this ensign?  Im assuming one ship may have loaned a flag to another ship??

 

Thanks again for the very informative thread. 

[tdurbinmas]

The Japanese Navy considered the flags to be consumable items unlike the Army. The army’s unit flags were hand inscribed and issued by the Emperor himself and thus were treated as divine items. As years went by they were often in shreds or just fringe hanging from the pole. Most of the ships had a supply of flags that were replaced as they were used up. I doubt it would require an inscription noting a flag had been loaned to another ship. 
 

Also interesting to note that there seems to be a large number of IJN flags and ensigns that survived ww2. I personally have about 10 of various sizes in my collection and there are many more “out there”. They had a large fleet that survived the war, not to mention flags that may have been on their QM shelves and were unissued. 
 

I love the unique hand stitching attributable to authentic IJN flags. The multi-piece construction is really amazing. 

[blademan]

I am also impressed by the quality of stitching and the effort it took to piece them together. 

 

I hope to find a size 1 through 3.  This would give me more options of displaying them. The size 8 would be impressive to see hanging. 

 

Would love to see pictures of other large IJN flags. 

 

Thanks again for your help. 

[blademan]

Encouraging news. I just happen to find a friend who knows who the vet that brought this flag back. I was asked to check back with them in a few weeks to give them time to find the documentation. Keeping my fingers crossed.