AlexeiK Posted April 8, 2023 #26 Posted April 8, 2023 What do you think about the following instance? Serif font is well engraved, it's hard to reproduce. The 1st Wolfhounds indeed operated in Vietnam in 1968. But I failed to find out what "The annihilators" could mean (besides the fiction movie of the same name about Vietnam veterans).
mtnman Posted April 8, 2023 #27 Posted April 8, 2023 32 minutes ago, AlexeiK said: What do you think about the following instance? Serif font is well engraved, it's hard to reproduce. The 1st Wolfhounds indeed operated in Vietnam in 1968. But I failed to find out what "The annihilators" could mean (besides the fiction movie of the same name about Vietnam veterans). With my limited experience, the engraving looks good. I think you've narrowed it down to the proper discernment parameters, figuring out whether the annihilators is a proper moniker and giving some thought to the words of the engraving regarding whether soldiers would put that on there or not, that kind of thing. I haven't seen fabricated decay like that on a lighter but like I said I'm relatively new. Please keep us posted on what you find out!
yokota57 Posted April 8, 2023 #28 Posted April 8, 2023 1 hour ago, AlexeiK said: What do you think about the following instance? Serif font is well engraved, it's hard to reproduce. The 1st Wolfhounds indeed operated in Vietnam in 1968. But I failed to find out what "The annihilators" could mean (besides the fiction movie of the same name about Vietnam veterans). My opinion: Number 10.
AlexeiK Posted April 8, 2023 #29 Posted April 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, yokota57 said: Number 10 What does it mean?
yokota57 Posted April 8, 2023 #30 Posted April 8, 2023 1 minute ago, AlexeiK said: What does it mean? In Japan #1 is "The Best" (Ichi Ban). #10 is the absolute "Worst".
Cobra 6 Actual Posted April 8, 2023 Author #31 Posted April 8, 2023 And “Number 10,000” was the worst of the worst. Alexei, if it was me I would pass. Personally, I don’t really like that lighter. I think it’s been artificially aged. But, just for the sake of argument, put that aside: who would want a lighter in that condition in his collection? It would be different, for example, if we could document a bullet hole in the lighter with the veteran’s statement that it saved his life. I believe the Zippo Museum in Bradford, Pennsylvania, has such a lighter and such documentation. But, just a rusted up lighter. Nope. So, otherwise, I prefer to wait for a lighter in decent condition with the veteran’s name and unit. All too often fakers will put a distinctive unit insignia on a lighter, sometimes even with the unit’s name engraved as well, like the one you just posted. But, that one is for a Regimental unit. (By the way, “The Annihilators” is the unit’s nickname.) Most Vietnam Army veterans didn’t really personally identify with their regiment; rather they identified with their platoon, company, and battalion, and then their division. So, for example, you may have “Bob Johnson, B Company, 2nd Battalion” along with a beer can emblem for his division engraved on a lighter. What I would look for, in addition to the veteran’s name, is the Company (A, B, C, etc.) and the Battalion (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.) … sometimes even the Brigade (1st, etc.) will be included; but usually not. Then the division, engraved or with an emblem. The most “rock solid” lighters to me have those elements as well as some kind of design (often a beer can one) plus a copy of the veteran’s DD-214 indicating Vietnam service. In fact, the only Vietnam Zippos I collect now are those that come with that DD-214. And it’s OK if the veteran obliterates the social security number or the service number due to privacy concerns.
yokota57 Posted April 8, 2023 #32 Posted April 8, 2023 4 minutes ago, Cobra 6 Actual said: And “Number 10,000” was the worst of the worst. Alexei, if it was me I would pass. Personally, I don’t really like that lighter. I think it’s been artificially aged. But, just for the sake of argument, put that aside: who would want a lighter in that condition in his collection? It would be different, for example, if we could document a bullet hole in the lighter with the veteran’s statement that it saved his life. I believe the Zippo Museum in Bradford, Pennsylvania, has such a lighter and such documentation. But, just a rusted up lighter. Nope. So, otherwise, I prefer to wait for a lighter in decent condition with the veteran’s name and unit. All too often fakers will put a distinctive unit insignia on a lighter, sometimes even with the unit’s name engraved as well, like the one you just posted. But, that one is for a Regimental unit. (By the way, “The Annihilators” is the unit’s nickname.) Most Vietnam Army veterans didn’t really personally identify with their regiment; rather they identified with their platoon, company, and battalion, and then their division. So, for example, you may have “Bob Johnson, B Company, 2nd Battalion” along with a beer can emblem for his division. What I would look for, in addition to the veteran’s name, is the Company (A, B, C, etc.) and the Battalion (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.) … sometimes even the Brigade (1st, etc.) will be included; but usually not. Then the division, engraved or with an emblem. The most “rock solid” lighters to me have those elements as well as some kind of design (often a beer can one) plus a copy of the veteran’s DD-214 indicating Vietnam service. In fact, the only Vietnam Zippos I collect now are those that come with that DD-214. And it’s OK if the veteran obliterates the social security number or the service number due to privacy concerns. C6As WISE WORDS to all novice/potential "Vietnam Zippo" collectors. Iron-clad provenance, supporting evidence and knowledge are the keys. Heed his advice!
AlexeiK Posted April 8, 2023 #33 Posted April 8, 2023 @Cobra 6 Actual, @yokota57, thanks. Intuitively I understand that this one is most probably fake, but your opinion is decisive.
yokota57 Posted April 8, 2023 #34 Posted April 8, 2023 9 minutes ago, AlexeiK said: @Cobra 6 Actual, @yokota57, thanks. Intuitively I understand that this one is most probably fake, but your opinion is decisive. AlexeiK, As MANY have previously stated on the USMF: 99.9999% of the "Vietnam Zippos" on Ebay are fake/bogus/concoctions intended to deceive and separate you from your Rubles. Caveat Emptor
River Patrol Posted April 9, 2023 #35 Posted April 9, 2023 14 hours ago, yokota57 said: AlexeiK, As MANY have previously stated on the USMF: 99.9999% of the "Vietnam Zippos" on Ebay are fake/bogus/concoctions intended to deceive and separate you from your Rubles. Caveat Emptor I'm with you on the words of caution for any collector, but I believe it's more like 95% Vietnam Zippos on Ebay are fake, but I don't collect just zippos so it may seem like there are more to me than other collectors. There are a few original zippos that come to the surface every few months. I also don't fully agree with all your numbered (#) rules, especially the first 4 or 5, I could find examples in my collection or I've seen examples that contradicts some of these rules, Again, spreading the word of caution and showing examples of techniques used by the fakers is a great idea. Keep going! Kind regards, Riverpatrol
Cobra 6 Actual Posted April 9, 2023 Author #36 Posted April 9, 2023 Thanks for your comments, River Patrol. You’re right, the items listed in my Post #1 are not really rules, more like guidelines; and flexible ones at that. In fact, I called them “practical tips” in my opening paragraph. Also, there’s no need for us to quibble about whether it is 95% or 99% of those Zippos on eBay that are fakes. We can probably both agree that the vast majority on that site are fakes. My purpose in starting this thread was to help new collectors. And none of my “rules” are infallible. For example, #4 starts with “This isn’t always so …” implying that there clearly are exceptions. Similarly, #5 starts with “Most authentic …”. Again, the implication is that there are exceptions. Like you, I also have plenty of exceptions, in fact, in Post #12 is one such example where I posted a lighter of mine that “broke” several of my supposed rules. Again, thank you for your comments. Let the examples continue. And please post some of your lighters, too.
Cobra 6 Actual Posted April 9, 2023 Author #37 Posted April 9, 2023 In the spirit of what River Patrol brought up, here’s a Zippo that violates one of the indicators of fakes. So this lighter has an emblem for the 198th Infantry Brigade: That’s DUI is just fine. But as I noted earlier a lot of authentic Vietnam Zippos won’t have black paint in their lettering. But, look around the edges of that DUI, above. What are those paint filled leaves doing there? Well, it turns out that this guy (a friend of mine for over 40 years) was cheap. He brought a lighter with him to Vietnam from a manufacturing company he had worked for back in the States. He decided while in-country to have it engraved. His name and rank are under the orange post-it note. The DUI was soldered over the manufacturing company’s engraved logo with the leaves in the original design still peaking out. By the way, that’s his DD-214 from under the lighter. Here’s the reverse: It has a nicely engraved CIB along with a DUI for the Americal Division, which the 198th was assigned to in Vietnam. His DD-214, by the way, confirms that he was in the Infantry and earned a CIB. So, sometimes an indicator of a fake, such as black paint filled leaves, is a false lead. The backstory, in this case, along with the DD-214, clearly solidifies the authenticity of this Zippo.
AlexeiK Posted April 9, 2023 #38 Posted April 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Cobra 6 Actual said: ... What are those paint filled leaves doing there? ... But (judging from the available pic) the floral ornament doesn't look like it's filled with black paint, rather simply dirt. IMHO it's hard to see a substantial difference between floral engraving and CIB on the obverse.
Cobra 6 Actual Posted April 9, 2023 Author #39 Posted April 9, 2023 Well, “in the hand” it is black paint on the leaves, while you’re right: that’s dirt in the CIB, Alexei. The main point though, as noted in Post #38, is that sometimes additional information (such as the DD-214 and the original owner’s backstory of how he got the lighter, had it engraved, and had the one enameled insignia put over the manufacturer’s logo) can solidify the authenticity of the lighter.
mtnman Posted April 9, 2023 #40 Posted April 9, 2023 Cobra that is an absolute beauty! What vivid color and detail.... Just wow
Cobra 6 Actual Posted April 9, 2023 Author #41 Posted April 9, 2023 Thanks, mtnman! I agree, especially about the 198th Infantry insignia.
AlexeiK Posted April 9, 2023 #42 Posted April 9, 2023 Let’s discuss a specific class of fake Zippos: lighters with genuine engravings to which fake engravings were added later. I know this technique of falsification from clay tablets with cuneiform inscriptions (Assyria, Babylonia etc.). Some Syrian and Iraqi local black diggers believe that more text makes the tablet more expensive. So, when they find a cuneiform tablet, they attempt to carve additional cuneiform-like signs on blank spaces. I suppose the same trick can be revealed for some Zippos. Look at the following instance. The lower part (Ft. Knox’s emblem and motto) seems genuine. But the engraving on the upper part (VIET NAM, To construct more church than hell in Vietnam) looks very suspicious to me. BTW, is it ok to say in English “To construct more church than hell”?
Cobra 6 Actual Posted April 9, 2023 Author #43 Posted April 9, 2023 Alexei, that saying just doesn't make any sense in English. Based on that alone I can tell it is a fake. And again, back to an earlier comment: the lighter is in relic condition. Who would want such a lighter in their collection?
yokota57 Posted April 9, 2023 #44 Posted April 9, 2023 5 hours ago, Cobra 6 Actual said: In the spirit of what River Patrol brought up, here’s a Zippo that violates one of the indicators of fakes. So this lighter has an emblem for the 198th Infantry Brigade: That’s DUI is just fine. But as I noted earlier a lot of authentic Vietnam Zippos won’t have black paint in their lettering. But, look around the edges of that DUI, above. What are those paint filled leaves doing there? Well, it turns out that this guy (a friend of mine for over 40 years) was cheap. He brought a lighter with him to Vietnam from a manufacturing company he had worked for back in the States. He decided while in-country to have it engraved. His name and rank are under the orange post-it note. The DUI was soldered over the manufacturing company’s engraved logo with the leaves in the original design still peaking out. By the way, that’s his DD-214 from under the lighter. Here’s the reverse: It has a nicely engraved CIB along with a DUI for the Americal Division, which the 198th was assigned to in Vietnam. His DD-214, by the way, confirms that he was in the Infantry and earned a CIB. So, sometimes an indicator of a fake, such as black paint filled leaves, is a false lead. The backstory, in this case, along with the DD-214, clearly solidifies the authenticity of this Zippo. Ichi-Ban !!
yokota57 Posted April 9, 2023 #45 Posted April 9, 2023 53 minutes ago, AlexeiK said: Let’s discuss a specific class of fake Zippos: lighters with genuine engravings to which fake engravings were added later. I know this technique of falsification from clay tablets with cuneiform inscriptions (Assyria, Babylonia etc.). Some Syrian and Iraqi local black diggers believe that more text makes the tablet more expensive. So, when they find a cuneiform tablet, they attempt to carve additional cuneiform-like signs on blank spaces. I suppose the same trick can be revealed for some Zippos. Look at the following instance. The lower part (Ft. Knox’s emblem and motto) seems genuine. But the engraving on the upper part (VIET NAM, To construct more church than hell in Vietnam) looks very suspicious to me. BTW, is it ok to say in English “To construct more church than hell”? #10 !!
Cobra 6 Actual Posted April 10, 2023 Author #46 Posted April 10, 2023 This fake Vietnam lighter is on eBay right now: The indicators: wobbly, paint-filled letters, mis-shaped numbers (especially the number “6”), and the biggest tip off is the USS Nimitz enameled insignia coupled with a “Lai Khe” location. Lai Khe was one of the First Infantry Division’s base camps and about 40 miles northwest of Saigon. In other words it’s not near any oceans or deep water ports.
AlexeiK Posted April 10, 2023 #47 Posted April 10, 2023 8 minutes ago, Cobra 6 Actual said: USS Nimitz enameled insignia But the enameled emblem looks ok, doesn't it? Probably the insignia is authentic with fake text carved recently to make the item more valuable.
Cobra 6 Actual Posted April 10, 2023 Author #48 Posted April 10, 2023 Yes, the pin is fine, Alexei, but it’s just an enamel pin. It probably cost but a few dollars. The main point though is that this is a fake. I doubt very seriously if an authentic Zippo made for a crew member of the USS Nimitz was “upgraded” by adding a fake location and on the reverse a saying to increase value. More probable is that the lighter had both the engraving and the enameled pin added by the same faker. In point of fact there are some absolutely beautiful Zippos with engraved ships names and logos available to those who want them. Often these are even sold in the ship stores. Here’s an example:
Cobra 6 Actual Posted April 11, 2023 Author #49 Posted April 11, 2023 Ah, now here’s a beauty: But, wait, a look at the Zippo date code on the bottom reveals this lighter was actually made in 2001. So, perhaps for a reunion or just as a remembrance? Although I’m not posting the bottom of these lighters with the date codes, just to keep things moving; the date codes are really important. Here’s Zippo’s official site with the date codes clearly listed: https://www.zippo.com/pages/date-codes
AlexeiK Posted April 12, 2023 #50 Posted April 12, 2023 Another instance with the authentic enameled badge. The text is engraved accurately and without black paint (at least on the obverse), but stylistically it looks the same as the bulk of fakes. The engraved bottom indicates a fake anyway.
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