4th infantry division helmet ?

[FrankieCzech]

Hey, guys.

I would like to ask you about this helmet. I got it from a friend who is not very knowledgeable about helmets. I've already looked at it a bit, but I'd really appreciate your opinion. It is supposed to be a 4th ID helmet with MSA liner. I have taken pictures of hopefully everything that can contribute to an identification. The Heat Stamp has been eaten away, but I have tried to capture at least the remnants of the number. The chinstraps are not from the factory, probably someone sewed them on later. Do you think it's a McCord? Fixed bales should hopefully match. The back of the helmet is welded from factory cracking.  The main thing is the painting on the front of the helmet. Do you think it matches the wartime markings? I tried to find some pics on the internet but they're not that good. The liner is MSA, but I have a feeling the mark is stamped backwards. Is that correct? The wartime period is obviously clear ? I am attaching a photo with the liner painted on the outside. There is a red dot on the front of the liner.

I would really appreciate your opinions and your help with identification. Thank you very much in advance for your helpfulness.

Sincerely Frank.

[Ronnie]

Looks like a McCord. I would remove those funky chin straps.

[FT.Monmouth1943]

Looks like it stands a chance. Chinstraps are not original to the shell, and the liner was added to the shell more recently (still an original WWII liner, just not original to the shell).

[Justin]

I think it has a good chance as a relic shell. The insignia looks like the correct size and location. 

 

I agree with the others, the chinstraps are definitely collector added, as well as the liner. 

 

The repairs to cracking look old but I think we're also done post war. The condition is similar to examples you see pulled from the earth. Especially with all that interior pitting.

 

[FrankieCzech]

4 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Looks like a McCord. I would remove those funky chin straps.

Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate it. Can I ask you one more question about the liner? Is the manufacturer's marking stamped backwards an anomaly? I would also like to ask if I can have the liner in the helmet as a complete display. Thank you for your kindness.

[FrankieCzech]

4 hours ago, FT.Monmouth1943 said:

Looks like it stands a chance. Chinstraps are not original to the shell, and the liner was added to the shell more recently (still an original WWII liner, just not original to the shell).

Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate it. Can I ask you one more question about the liner? Is the manufacturer's marking stamped backwards an anomaly? I would also like to ask if I can have the liner in the helmet as a complete display. Thank you for your kindness.

[FrankieCzech]

4 hours ago, Justin said:

I think it has a good chance as a relic shell. The insignia looks like the correct size and location. 

 

I agree with the others, the chinstraps are definitely collector added, as well as the liner. 

 

The repairs to cracking look old but I think we're also done post war. The condition is similar to examples you see pulled from the earth. Especially with all that interior pitting.

 

Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate it. Can I ask you one more question about the liner? Is the manufacturer's marking stamped backwards an anomaly? I would also like to ask if I can have the liner in the helmet as a complete display. Thank you for your kindness.

[Ronnie]

The stamp in the liner isn’t backwards. It is ok. The liner needs to be stripped and painted with the correct color od. Otherwise it would be ok for a display. IMO.

[ccmax]

Looks like it could be displayed as a relic shell seeing as the liner and straps are very recent add-ons.

[dmar836]

So I would assume this to be a "dug" helmet that was poorly restored with random parts.

[FrankieCzech]

1 hour ago, dmar836 said:

So I would assume this to be a "dug" helmet that was poorly restored with random parts.

I see. So what should I do with the helmet and the liner ? Remove the chinstraps and decolorise the liner ?

Can it be displayed together?

[dmar836]

I suppose those who collect these could say. I was just putting it all in one statement. It sounds like you shouldn't really pay a lot for the inclusion of the liner and parts unless you want to do work on it. You would have no choice with the chinstraps - those are pieced together and might even have come from something else. Even if you didn't mind the repairs, the "bar tacks" are all wrong. The liner has been painted with a funky color. It's WWII manufacture but needs to be a better color IMO.

It depends what you have to/want to pay and how original you want the parts to be. Once you repaint parts and add the appropriate straps, you might not have the originality or worn appearance that matches the patina of the dug M-1 shell.

JMO,

Dave

[manayunkman]

I would display the steel pot all by itself without the liner or the chinstraps.

 

The day that steel pot was found the chinstraps and liner were not with it.

 

Do whatever you want with the liner and chinstraps, I personally would sell them or save them for a more appropriate steel pot.

 

Why the liner is that color or has that red dot is anyone’s guess, it could be an original field paint job but could also be a backyard paint job so what do you do?

 

Leave the liner as for now until you have a better idea of what you want to do with it, personally I wouldn’t want it if it was restored but it’s not mine and you are free to do as you please with it.

 

 

[Nickman983]

Mostly agree with what everyone else has said, though if you do decide to remove the chinstraps I would try to undo the stitching at the bails. Unless I'm seeing something wrong they at least look to be original late war straps. Any chinstraps added to this shell, regardless of how well they're done, will look out of place.

 

Personally I would display it without any liner due to the heavy rusting on the interior. You could always hold on to the liner if you need a spare one or sell it. Stripping it would be at your discretion. Not sure how liners handle being stripped vs steel shells

[Ronnie]

On 3/27/2023 at 12:12 PM, FrankieCzech said:

I see. So what should I do with the helmet and the liner ? Remove the chinstraps and decolorise the liner ?

Can it be displayed together?

Plant a flower in it….

[FrankieCzech]

Thank you all for your helpful advice and for your help. I will display the shell separately without liner and chinstraps. I'm happy for a nice piece for my collection and for a liner to stock for another next Shell.