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What to watch for: Examples of fake/reproduction patches


pconrad02
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Thank you sooo much for having this thread!

 

Until earlier this year I knew very little about patches, dog tags, etc. but I am learning, and I am doing what I can to be respectful and make sure people are remembered.

 

I am the temporary caretaker of a collection of patches that my father-in-law gathered over many years as a collector of all things military. We are in the process of finding the patches, and other items, new homes now that he is gone. As I try and identify what each patch represents, I am enjoying learning a little about the work each unit (division, battalion, etc.) has done over the years.

 

Any way - it is very important to me to correctly represent the items that I am selling. I have two different FMF-PAC patches and I was delighted to see the pictures posted by JimCapp - and verified that 'my' two are originals. Whew!

 

In reading through the posts (9 pages!) I have a few questions.

What does OD mean? It has been used in reference to edges.

What does 'cut edge' really mean? Some of my patches obviously were cut from a large piece of material. I have only found a few where the edge is embroidered.

Some are very flexible and thin, others are stiff - what might be the significance of this?

Is there a list of 'possible red flags' if seen on a patch?

 

So far we have found little evidence of fake anything in my father-in-law's (way too) big collection. But - one never knows.

 

Thanks for any help!

Joy

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Thank you sooo much for having this thread!

 

Until earlier this year I knew very little about patches, dog tags, etc. but I am learning, and I am doing what I can to be respectful and make sure people are remembered.

 

I am the temporary caretaker of a collection of patches that my father-in-law gathered over many years as a collector of all things military. We are in the process of finding the patches, and other items, new homes now that he is gone. As I try and identify what each patch represents, I am enjoying learning a little about the work each unit (division, battalion, etc.) has done over the years.

 

Any way - it is very important to me to correctly represent the items that I am selling. I have two different FMF-PAC patches and I was delighted to see the pictures posted by JimCapp - and verified that 'my' two are originals. Whew!

 

In reading through the posts (9 pages!) I have a few questions.

What does OD mean? It has been used in reference to edges.

What does 'cut edge' really mean? Some of my patches obviously were cut from a large piece of material. I have only found a few where the edge is embroidered.

Some are very flexible and thin, others are stiff - what might be the significance of this?

Is there a list of 'possible red flags' if seen on a patch?

 

So far we have found little evidence of fake anything in my father-in-law's (way too) big collection. But - one never knows.

 

Thanks for any help!

Joy

 

What does OD mean? It has been used in reference to edges.

 

Olive Drab. It's the pea green color that is standard military.

 

What does 'cut edge' really mean? Some of my patches obviously were cut from a large piece of material. I have only found a few where the edge is embroidered.

 

Cut edge or flat edge is when the patch is cut from the backing twill cloth. Most WWII era patches were cut edge with some exceptions. Later patches and a few WWII and earlier were merrowed edge They are made the same way as cut edge patches, but the edges are covered with a merrowing stitch to keep it from fraying. here are some links to some cut edge patches being made on a Schiffli machine at post #16:

 

Schiffli Patch Making links post #16

 

 

Some are very flexible and thin, others are stiff - what might be the significance of this?

Is there a list of 'possible red flags' if seen on a patch?

 

..and another link that may answer some of your questions.

 

WWII Patches

 

If you have a specific question about something, a good idea is to go to the main screen of that section's forum and do a search at the bottom.

This helps to avoid redundant posts and may lead you to a good post that is already started where you can add some info or ask a question more in line with the topic. You could also start a new topic so your post can be more quickly noticed by others.

Hope this helps ;)

 

Jim Cappella

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  • 1 month later...

Here's a side by side comparison of two 50th phantom Infantry Division patches. The original is on the left and the reproduction is on the right.

post-6395-1256436791.jpg

post-6395-1256436812.jpg

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The tip off on the repro 50th is the poly mesh backing poking out on the edges on the back. There are no fully embroidered patches with a polyester mesh backing.

Here's a look at them blacklighted.

post-6395-1256437853.jpg

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Here's one that got me recently. From the pictures posted on Ebay, I thought this was the center cut from a full-sized, embroidered on felt patch. There were a few of them sold a while before this batch and, if I remember it correctly, the listing said they were bought from a motorcycle patch dealer who didn't know what they were. I thought about getting one then but passed. This time around the seller said they were guaranteed original and blacklight tested. I assumed someone had told him after he sold the last batch that they were from an original Raider patch, so this time I bid. When it arrived in the mail the other day, I blacklighted it and found that the mesh at the edge glowed. When I further examined it I saw that it was cut from a fully embroidered reproduction, not an embroidered on felt original as I suspected.

post-6395-1256440190.jpg

post-6395-1256440206.jpg

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It's difficult to get a good picture that shows a true representation of what a patch looks like to the eye when blacklighting it. Most of the white bobbin threads on the reverse have a yellowish glow, as do original WW2 patches. The only part that actually flouresces purplish is the mesh backing on the back edge. The seller told me he blacklighted these patches at an ASMIC show and nothing glowed on them. I give him the benefit of a doubt as only a small part of the patch actually glows.

post-6395-1256440843.jpg

post-6395-1256440852.jpg

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Here's a side by side comparison of two 50th phantom Infantry Division patches. The original is on the left and the reproduction is on the right.

 

These tips - about the mesh/poly backing are really great! And, I think you did an excellent job showing the glow in the black light.

 

Is it fair to assume that the mesh/poly backing is fairly stiff? It 'looks' that way in your pictures.

 

Joy

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The mesh is stiff. It's what I've heard called interfacing. It's used to keep the thinner material from bunching up as it's embroidered and helps it to hold it's shape through laundering. It also adds thickness to a fully embroidered patch so less stitches are needed. In WW2 era only felt or partially embroidered on twill patches used it. It was cotton/rayon and will look dull yellowish under a blacklight. More modern patches use a polyester interfacing that is stiff and feels bristley where it pokes out at the edges. It glows bright purple under a blacklight. It was not used in fully embroidered on twill, cut edge patches until more recently for collector copies or reproductions.

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  • 3 weeks later...

This has been very useful. Does anyone have a side by side for the 49th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Brigade Pocket Patch? I am uncertain if I have seen an original one.

HOWARD LANHAM

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Howard, this is a picture of a "good" one:

 

Lars

49a.jpg

 

Back. Backing thread looks "shiny" because of the flashlight. In fact it has an ivory, matt look.

49b.jpg

 

Embroidered on felt variant.

49AAA1.JPG

 

Back.

49AAA2.JPG

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  • 1 month later...
Here's one that got me recently. From the pictures posted on Ebay, I thought this was the center cut from a full-sized, embroidered on felt patch. There were a few of them sold a while before this batch and, if I remember it correctly, the listing said they were bought from a motorcycle patch dealer who didn't know what they were. I thought about getting one then but passed. This time around the seller said they were guaranteed original and blacklight tested. I assumed someone had told him after he sold the last batch that they were from an original Raider patch, so this time I bid. When it arrived in the mail the other day, I blacklighted it and found that the mesh at the edge glowed. When I further examined it I saw that it was cut from a fully embroidered reproduction, not an embroidered on felt original as I suspected.

 

 

This guy is at it again. After much going back and forth with email messages I did finally get a refund, but my feedback deadline had expired. After selling the very last six patches last time apparently another four surfaced, plus the one I returned for a refund, for a total of five more. No claim that they will pass a blacklight test anymore or that they are original Raider patches, but he still claims they are original.

 

The current listing description as follows:320466114570

 

No glow, cut edge, fully embroidered USMC skull patch. Maybe Raiders? Just a hair under 1" x 1". Bought a little boxful of these from a guy who sold old vintage racing and hot rod patches from the 40's and 50's. Not a reproduction!! You will get the patch pictured as I have them all numbered, so bid on the one you see in each listing as they are all slightly different. WYSIWYG. Please review the pics and then ask any questions you may have before committing to buy this item. I will be happy to answer them for you. Additional shipping services at your discretion and costs. Thank you for your interest and be sure to visit my listings often as I will be offering quality items of all kinds. jumpin_jehosophat_sc

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  • 6 months later...

Paul, I genuinely like what you are trying to do, but you are misinformed on the mission to moscow patches. i am hoping to put a copy of the original document and drawing of the mission's request for their patch, in color, when i get a moment. They did not authorize its wear until 1945. The picture is identical to the one you say is made for collectors. Also the documents specify who wears it, how it is worn, etc. This came from the US Military Mission to Moscow files at NARA. I found it while doing some of my dissertation research several years back. We need to be careful what is put out in the forum, so much of it is taken as gospel.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Dear all,

 

Is this post closed to non-members? I am thinking off adding more info, but dont

want to post on an open forum, non members can see. Dont want to help the

scammers.

 

Here is an example of a fake USMC polar bear patch set:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

This seller says "he knows nothing" about these patches, yet he has been selling them for

2-3 years! His description indicates they are original, "grubby" bla bla.

These are copy patches being sold by a company in England for about $10 a set. I bought a

set for referance.

 

A modified (faked) set of them sold for $51 recently on Ebay. I tried to contact the seller

(stretchman89) to let him know, but no reply and sale went on, and someone got burnt.

 

Reg

 

Hinrik

post-5556-1281127022.jpg

post-5556-1281127036.jpg

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  • 3 months later...
  • 10 months later...

I'd be careful on the MISSION TO MOSCOW patch shown as being a fake. Don't forget that the patch could be worn as a "combat patch" for as long as the soldier was on active duty. Also, in those days the color patches were worn on fatigues, khaki, and the class A uniforms. They wear out from normal use and the cleaners take a toll too. Just one man's opinion to add to the pile.

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  • 1 year later...

An example of a close reproduction. This 1st Army patch comparison shows just how good some repros can be. The original is on the left, the repro on the right. The difference primarily lies in the synthetic return threads on the reverse of the repro.

 

The front.

 

-Ski

post-3043-0-91352600-1361128219.jpeg

 

The reverse.

 

-Ski

post-3043-0-44696700-1361128251.jpeg

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Here is a comparison between 5th Ranger arcs. The top one is original, the bottom one a Patch King repro. Originals (with theater made exceptions of course) have weighted letters and thick wool base material. The mesh is very loosely constructed and this is usually trimmed before sewing the patch on.

 

-Ski

post-3043-0-70601600-1361129146.jpeg

 

The reverse....

 

-Ski

post-3043-0-90157300-1361129225.jpeg

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  • 5 months later...
ocsfollowme

Going back to the original post in this thread, the Military Police Efficiency patch. An all cotton one just sold on ebay.

 

 

$(KGrHqVHJEQFHhY8-cmgBR7C2fE0-Q~~60_3.JP$(KGrHqRHJEEFH,sK1ZMnBR7C2kCroQ~~60_3.JP

 

So I would say this one was legit! Adding it to my quilt =)

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  • 10 years later...
On 9/16/2008 at 6:41 PM, Teamski said:

The First Special Service Force. I know of no other patch that has drawn more sucker bucks out of buyers on E-Bay. The repro on the right is the typical one found on E-Bay. Dead givaway is the broad shoulders of the arrowhead.

 

-Ski

post-3043-1221604865.jpg

post-3043-1221604870.jpg

And the fact that the C is ALWAYS close to the S.

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