1stDivVet Posted December 19, 2008 Share #76 Posted December 19, 2008 Tank Destroyer Original shows more detail to the teeth. Orange is lighter on the original. Also note closeness of the lower wheel on the original as compared to the repop. As usual, original shows crisper stitching where repop is a fatter detail. Eyes on original have smaller V. Red eyebrow is more defined than on the repop also. Back of the repop is plastic covered. Even removed, pieces of this will stick to raised areas on the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stDivVet Posted December 19, 2008 Share #77 Posted December 19, 2008 1st Allied Airborne on felt(English made) Original is paler in color all around. I have access to another and it is almost identical to mine. As both are from the same vet, go figure. I do like the stitching on the 1 on the repop.. Very close to the original. Repop is also smaller overall in both size and design. Stitching is closer and very obvious machine sewn on the repop in places. Back lacks the black cotton seen on most originals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stDivVet Posted December 19, 2008 Share #78 Posted December 19, 2008 USN Amphibious Forces. Color is sharper on the original.. Repop has a 'faded' look overall. I had several of them and all were the same, so it wasn't just from light damage. Usual crisper detail on the original. Eye is less defined on all my originals. Note ring on ancor top is ofset on the repop. Grips on the Thompson on the repop are more blocked. Repop's stock also is not sectionally embroidered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1969 Posted December 25, 2008 Share #79 Posted December 25, 2008 Hello everyone !! Very nice topic here !! That's why I joined the Forum recently, to get these informations "young" collectors need. I only collect since a few years now... 2005, I think, and unfortunately (as every beginner I guess) had my share in the "community" of fake patches. I don't have a problem with fakes if they are sold that why, but more and more you see the opposite Really scary and it gives me a feeling sometimes that I have to stop... Till now, I've hoped to manage with the collection and to see some of the differences between good or fake, WW2 or post WW2,... but I still have a lot to learn. Another example on the topic... Both patches were bought when I started. The 13th AB patch was sold as a copy... OK with me, as a starter I wanted something cheap, "to fill in the hole" as they say... . Under UV-light the cut edge glows, so definitely copy ! The 135th AB "Ghost" Div patch was sold at a show here as being 100% Original WW2 era made... Now I know that, as a beginner, I made a mistake giving too much money for that one. I keep this copy to show my friends how good they can make them. It doesn't glow under UV, by the way. But after several lessons (for myself), a trained eye can see it's a copy, + an attached tab on a "Ghost" Div patch? Never seen that during my short life of collecting... Anyone else? I guess not... This deception of beginners should stop because that's sometimes the reason collectors don't want to continue or even don't want to begin... "But may be your experience here with these items could help these guys", I think by myself after a while. I know one thing for sure, even if I'm having some difficulties continuing, when I talk to some good people I've met over the years via eBay and we share pictures of our collections of good WW2 patches, I can forget the bad feelings of "may be stopping" and being a little bit proud of what I've achieved in this brief period. Has anyone felt the same in the past? May be this can help "beginners" continuing ! Thanks a lot, guys, for the interesting informations written here in this topic. ...and Merry Christmas ! Hans PS : I've heard a lot about these OD bordered Inf Div patches like the 77th, 88th, 83rd... Are they WW2 or post WW2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1969 Posted December 25, 2008 Share #80 Posted December 25, 2008 Here's the back or the 88th and the others I mentioned before... Thx for your opinion ! Hans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1969 Posted December 26, 2008 Share #81 Posted December 26, 2008 Hello everyone !! Something went wrong with the previous attached pictures... so I've tried it again ! Hopefully it works Very nice topic here !! That's why I joined the Forum recently, to get these informations "young" collectors need. I only collect since a few years now... 2005, I think, and unfortunately (as every beginner I guess) had my share in the "community" of fake patches. I don't have a problem with fakes if they are sold that why, but more and more you see the opposite Really scary and it gives me a feeling sometimes that I have to stop... Till now, I've hoped to manage with the collection and to see some of the differences between good or fake, WW2 or post WW2,... but I still have a lot to learn. Another example on the topic... Both patches were bought when I started. The 13th AB patch was sold as a copy... OK with me, as a starter I wanted something cheap, "to fill in the hole" as they say... . Under UV-light the cut edge glows, so definitely copy ! The 135th AB "Ghost" Div patch was sold at a show here as being 100% Original WW2 era made... Now I know that, as a beginner, I made a mistake giving too much money for that one. I keep this copy to show my friends how good they can make them. It doesn't glow under UV, by the way. But after several lessons (for myself), a trained eye can see it's a copy, + an attached tab on a "Ghost" Div patch? Never seen that during my short life of collecting... Anyone else? I guess not... This deception of beginners should stop because that's sometimes the reason collectors don't want to continue or even don't want to begin... "But may be your experience here with these items could help these guys", I think by myself after a while. I know one thing for sure, even if I'm having some difficulties continuing, when I talk to some good people I've met over the years via eBay and we share pictures of our collections of good WW2 patches, I can forget the bad feelings of "may be stopping" and being a little bit proud of what I've achieved in this brief period. Has anyone felt the same in the past? May be this can help "beginners" continuing ! Thanks a lot, guys, for the interesting informations written here in this topic. ...and Merry Christmas ! Hans PS : I've heard a lot about these OD bordered Inf Div patches like the 77th, 88th, 83rd... Are they WW2 or post WW2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud Kraut Posted December 27, 2008 Share #82 Posted December 27, 2008 Hans, the 77th, 83rd and 88th Infantry Division patches are vintage wwII patches. (BTW, great OD-border variants!!!). The Airborne patches are both post war patches. I supose they are "glowing" under UV-light. The 13th Abn is harder to detect for a beginner because the front it's well done and comes close to an original except the fact (I suppose) that synthetic threats were used. The 135th Abn Div is a crude and ugly copy. All WW II U.S. made machine embroidered patches have the distinction of being made very accurately. Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud Kraut Posted December 27, 2008 Share #83 Posted December 27, 2008 For comparison: This is how a WW II 13th Abn Div patch with attached tab could look like: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgawne Posted December 27, 2008 Share #84 Posted December 27, 2008 Well, you have passed the first test of a collector, accepting you have been taken and not trying to figure out a way it just might possibly be real. But you have to be careful with the UV light. Sometimes, and this is just sometimes, patches that have been laundered in the right kind of detergent may have left a residue in the main fabric and that can glow some. The OD borders have never been fully explained to my satisfaction. Technically the patch designs were supposed to all have OD borders on them. I suspect as it would make it a lot easier ot sew on. It then appears that , for whatever reason (and we suspect because it was easier and used less material) the borders on most patches were dropped. That's the generally accepted idea, but I am not aware of any actual paper work fromt he period saying it. But you see more of the OD borders in the early days, and in general they are considered a better version to have. Some patches all have OD borders, some it is fairly common, some it is pretty rare and they are highly collected. It all depends upon the unit involved. Some people specialize in OD border patches. Personally, I think they are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1969 Posted December 28, 2008 Share #85 Posted December 28, 2008 Thx for the replies, folks ! About the OD borders... I know know they were a remnant of the cut wool OD border in the pre WW2 period. Sometimes you see OD backs with and without the OD border... OD backs are supposed to be early (1941-1943) WW2, may be some later... Even afterwards, patches were made with or without the OD border in white back variation. The 43rd Inf Div is a very good example of that. Could it be possible that the OD border was manufactured depending the firm (military - public)? Why did they make them "mixed" (with and without) during these periods? Hans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normaninvasion Posted December 28, 2008 Share #86 Posted December 28, 2008 Regarding the UV light test, I have heard the detergent theory and also I have heard that a patch stored in plastic or with other synthetic materials will cause a glow. Would like to hear any opinions on this. I think a good rule of thumb is to look at the snow on the backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1969 Posted December 31, 2008 Share #87 Posted December 31, 2008 Regarding the UV light test, I have heard the detergent theory and also I have heard that a patch stored in plastic or with other synthetic materials will cause a glow. Would like to hear any opinions on this. I think a good rule of thumb is to look at the snow on the backs. ----------- About the detergent and some washing products is correct. I've an example of it. The storage in plastic... (?) I don't have experience with that. I know that I put my collection in plastic maps and don't have any problem with it... Hans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted December 31, 2008 Share #88 Posted December 31, 2008 Thx for the replies, folks ! About the OD borders... I know know they were a remnant of the cut wool OD border in the pre WW2 period. Sometimes you see OD backs with and without the OD border... OD backs are supposed to be early (1941-1943) WW2, may be some later... Even afterwards, patches were made with or without the OD border in white back variation. The 43rd Inf Div is a very good example of that. Could it be possible that the OD border was manufactured depending the firm (military - public)? Why did they make them "mixed" (with and without) during these periods? Hans I tend to think that it was different company to company. I'm sure it had to do with who did the drawings and what the various supply folks working on the patches passed on to the contractors. I could also go with the above theory of a company assuming that an OD border had to be on a patch from past experience with OD wool basing material used before the war. You can't date OD bordering because you have both bordered and non-bordered green-backed patches, if you go by the early war theory of green-backs. A lot of wool patches were abundant early in the war that didn't have OD borders. Look at any wool AAF, 8th ID, etc to see that. Nice patches by the way!! -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1969 Posted January 1, 2009 Share #89 Posted January 1, 2009 I tend to think that it was different company to company. I'm sure it had to do with who did the drawings and what the various supply folks working on the patches passed on to the contractors. I could also go with the above theory of a company assuming that an OD border had to be on a patch from past experience with OD wool basing material used before the war. You can't date OD bordering because you have both bordered and non-bordered green-backed patches, if you go by the early war theory of green-backs. A lot of wool patches were abundant early in the war that didn't have OD borders. Look at any wool AAF, 8th ID, etc to see that. Nice patches by the way!! -Ski ----------- Thx for the reply, Ski ! I guess it will remain "a mistery" about the OD borders in some kind... but always interesting ! Happy New Year to you and all the members of the USMF ! Hans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted January 1, 2009 Share #90 Posted January 1, 2009 Here's the back or the 88th and the others I mentioned before... Thx for your opinion ! Hans Looking at your patches, I suppose you could possibly date these patches to about 1942 or so. The OD bordered 101st patch with the same ribbed stitch was worn very early in the Division's existance, a photo of it without the arc is shown on Bando's website..... -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted January 1, 2009 Share #91 Posted January 1, 2009 Here's the back or the 88th and the others I mentioned before... Thx for your opinion ! Hans Looking at your patches, I suppose you could possibly date these patches to about 1942 or so. The OD bordered 101st patch with the same ribbed stitch was worn very early in the Division's existance, a photo of it without the arc is shown on Bando's website..... Note the same ribbed stitch on this 88th patch as yours, so which came first is the question. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted February 21, 2009 Share #92 Posted February 21, 2009 An original 33rd Infantry Regt (RCT) on the right compared to a repro on the left. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmCapp Posted May 30, 2009 Share #93 Posted May 30, 2009 Does anyone know of any reproductions that come close to identical to mimicing WWII era flat-edge patches? I'm not talking about theatre made patches, just run of the mill embroidered....and not the easy to spot ones with the mesh backing that flouresces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmCapp Posted May 31, 2009 Share #94 Posted May 31, 2009 I came across this site that sells modern repros. Some are fairly convincing, some not so convincing. I thought it might be a good reference to help decide if a listed Ebay patch was a fake or not. Not sure what the backs are like , but I may pick up an old pattern 45th to use as a placeholder. If I do I'll post it here. http://stores.shop.ebay.com/doverarmynavy_...c0Q2em14?_pgn=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted July 15, 2009 Share #95 Posted July 15, 2009 Here is a comparison of an "original" 12th Tactical AF patch I got this weekend (on the left) and a repro I got as an 11 year old back in 1981. While the original one shown here is probably a Patch King version, it still dates from WWII and I consider it a legit patch nonetheless. The repro on the right has synthetic return threads and very thin felt. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted July 15, 2009 Share #96 Posted July 15, 2009 And the backs.... -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmCapp Posted September 12, 2009 Share #97 Posted September 12, 2009 Here are couple Marine Corps FMF-PAC Engineer for reference. The one on the left is the original WWII issue the one on the right is a modern reproduction. The repro I picked up on Ebay thinking it was a variation with more detail on the stitching on the castle and the individual feathers on the wings. What I didn't notice from the Ebay pic was the red twill backing and the poly mesh stabilizer at the edges on the back. Dead give a way for a repro. Even when trimmed close there will be bristles left poking out on the edges. The mesh is also the only part of the patch that glows under blacklight. The only fully embroidered WWII era patches that I have found that use a mesh stabilizer on the back are the ones embroidered on felt. Partially embroidered on twill and on felt also use the mesh gauze backing, but the originals normally won't glow under blacklight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmCapp Posted September 12, 2009 Share #98 Posted September 12, 2009 and the backsides. Look at all that nice snow on the back of that repro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmCapp Posted September 12, 2009 Share #99 Posted September 12, 2009 and a close up of the poly mesh stabilizer (the white screen shaped stuff poking out on the edges) that shouldn't be there on an original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmCapp Posted September 12, 2009 Share #100 Posted September 12, 2009 Here's a reproduction that shows up frequently on ebay, the white star service and supply FMF-PAC. There is a white-starred supply service FMF-PAC, but this is not it. This repro appears to be made by the same company that makes the engineer version above. Note the similarities, same details on the eagle, horizontal stitching on the disk. Most original FMF-PAC have vertical stitching on the disk except for some partially embroidered on felt versions. The star is a little canted on the repro too. If shopping for an original, avoid this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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