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What counts as documentation, and what ties a specific wing to that documentation? (Involves an eBay listing)


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Obviously the current wing pin on eBay is a fake.  It wasn’t owned by Elizabeth Wall Strohfus, and isn’t even the right size, and it’s pitted, which shouldn’t happen with stamped silver.  But the photos, which do look authentic and are shown as some sort of evidence, made me wonder this.  What counts, and how can you know that the documentation and accompanying pin actually go together?

 

 

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Nothing that I see actually ties this Woman to this wing. Unless Im missing something?

 

Further more it looks like a cast wing that some one braised posts onto, in a very sloppy manner and the clutches are modern not period correct. The patina, sulfer turns a wing black after 80 years and not gray.

Looks like a phony cast clunker artificially aged.

I have some original photos of a wasp pilot. Anyone can pair a photo with a wing real or fake and claim it came from a pilot. The only real way to tell is if it comes from a family member.

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@Noelle,

 

This has been a tactic of some unscrupulous people in this hobby for decades.  Find some documentation and/or period photos, pair it with a fake badge and voila:  "Documented grouping."

 

To answer your question, there really is no single standard by which something becomes documented.  You have to use your judgement and ultimately all the puzzle pieces should fit neatly together.  If the items have been together for many decades, rarely will they not complement each other.  

 

In this case, the faker is trying to back the uneducated into a sale by using some real documentation to entice them into accepting the fake badge (ostensibly the money piece).  He hopes his pigeon will be convinced to look past the badge's problems because of its association with the ancillary material.  

 

To be honest, because of your correct analysis of the badge above, you have demonstrated that you are already too sophisticated a collector for this type of faker.  He is hoping for a less educated and discerning pigeon to come along that he can hang his dreck upon.

 

A real badge stands on its own and the documentation only serves to add value to the group.

 

Chris

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And a good thing to always keep in the back of your mind is advice I got a long time ago when I first started collecting - Always buy the item not the story.  Your instincts were spot on to understand that something didn't feel right.  It's hard to walk away from something that you have an emotional attachment to but you have to listen to your gut when a deal has too many questions.

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To add: I know that that one is false.  Not only is it cast, it’s the wrong size.  But it got me wondering in general how to connect a wing to the documentation offered.  I’ve seen several fakes, but this is the first one with some sort of documentation, or “documentation” as the case may be.  

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5 hours ago, cwnorma said:

In this case, the faker is trying to back the uneducated into a sale by using some real documentation to entice them into accepting the fake badge (ostensibly the money piece).  He hopes his pigeon will be convinced to look past the badge's problems because of its association with the ancillary material.  

 

Which is sad.  I almost fell for a fake last summer until I decided I needed to do more research before dropping so much. On Tuesday, I’m starting a jewelry-making casting class to further my ability to identify cast pieces since I’m still not sure sometimes, though the pitting on this one is so obvious.

 

5 hours ago, cwnorma said:

A real badge stands on its own and the documentation only serves to add value to the group.

 

That’s a fantastic way to put it.  In other collection communities, the documentation can carry more weight than the item itself.   This kind of situation would be quite different.

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One way to get to know the difference between real wings and fake cast wings,

is to study authentic wings. A great place to look is Bob Schwartz site linked here

 

https://www.ww2wings.com/

 

Look at them study the backs etc.

 

Here is another good place to look at real wings.

 

https://www.militaryaviationartifacts.com/wings.htm

 

Study them and do some searches on real vs fake wings here. Some theater made wings and POWE wings were cast.

But by and large they were die struck.

The forum here is where I learned the most about wings from other members and their posts.

Some die cast wings are fake repros too. Like the meyer wings. But they are easy to spot when you become familiar with the signs of a real one vs a fake Meyer wing. Lots of info here on the forum on how to spot fake wings.

 

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Here is a link to a wing I picked up off of ebay. I wrote the seller and asked if they knew anything about the history of the wing. It was their

relatives wing and they sent me the pictures and a letter written by a P38 pilot friend of the instructor Mr Thomas..

That is provenance! But only because I wrote the seller and asked the question. Otherwise all of the associations to the badge

would be lost.

Otherwise it would just be another wing.

 

 

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5thwingmarty

Supposed WASP groupings are prime targets for unscrupulous sellers to unload cheap, fake wings for big bucks.  A prime example was the recent Rock Island auction where a supposed WASP grouping was sold for big bucks (~$4400), with my presumption being the bulk of the presumed value being the wing in the grouping.  That grouping did have a real WASP class book worth $600-$1000, and some other miscellaneous items worth maybe another combined $1000 if they were all real.  That means what I presume might be a JoeW special brought in about $2400.

 

 

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17 hours ago, The Rooster said:

One way to get to know the difference between real wings and fake cast wings,

is to study authentic wings. A great place to look is Bob Schwartz site linked here

 

https://www.ww2wings.com/

 

Look at them study the backs etc.

 

Here is another good place to look at real wings.

 

https://www.militaryaviationartifacts.com/wings.htm

 

Study them and do some searches on real vs fake wings here. Some theater made wings and POWE wings were cast.

But by and large they were die struck.

The forum here is where I learned the most about wings from other members and their posts.

Some die cast wings are fake repros too. Like the meyer wings. But they are easy to spot when you become familiar with the signs of a real one vs a fake Meyer wing. Lots of info here on the forum on how to spot fake wings.

 

 

That’s not what I’m asking.  I’m asking how you can know if provided documentation is real.

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2 hours ago, 5thwingmarty said:

Supposed WASP groupings are prime targets for unscrupulous sellers to unload cheap, fake wings for big bucks.  A prime example was the recent Rock Island auction where a supposed WASP grouping was sold for big bucks (~$4400), with my presumption being the bulk of the presumed value being the wing in the grouping.  That grouping did have a real WASP class book worth $600-$1000, and some other miscellaneous items worth maybe another combined $1000 if they were all real.  That means what I presume might be a JoeW special brought in about $2400.

 

 

Where do you find out about auctions ahead of time?  I’ve never heard of that auction.

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5thwingmarty

It depends on the documents that are being offered how hard or easy they are to determine.  If the documents are photographs, it can be hard or impossible to determine from what is shown in a listing as to whether they are vintage or reprints.  In hand photos are easier to tell and if you get a grouping that says the photos were original/vintage and in hand you see they are reprints, I would doubt how authentic anything in the grouping really is.

 

Service records and id's are easier to see if they look real or not in listing photos because of the types of paper they are printed on.

 

Letters supposedly written by the grouping's original owner or their family members should be viewed with the most skepticism.  The adage is "buy the item, not the story".  Always carefully read the auction listings and be wary of how the listing describes the item or grouping.  The more vague or potentially misleading the descriptions, the more wary you should be.  

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The cruel truth is that fakes and fakers rely on the same set of principles that all con men use to trick their mark. The individual's greed and ignorance to some extent or another are what makes them successful, not some magic bullet of well crafted chicanery.  Most fakes don't try very hard to fool people, when you really sit down and look at it. Frankly, its not the items in a the grouping that you have to watch out for, its your own desires and wants that get you in trouble.

 

I have seen people on this forum (I suspect I am just as bad as any) who have formed opinions based on what they want to be true rather than what really is likely.  For example, its not unheard of for a collector to find a "grouping" of a late war, stateside pilot who never went overseas because the war ended 2 weeks after he graduated from flight school that contains some rare "CBI-made" wing or "combat back patch" or some sort of other bling....   Probably not...  Yet they will twist themselves into a knot trying to justify that item in the grouping, when the most obvious thing is that its an add in.  You can find those discussions on this forum here and there!

 

I have found most of the less that savory dealers will simply put some items together and offer little or no effort so sell the items, they will simply let the sucker...er... buyer... convince himself that its good.

 

True story.  Years ago when I was less stupid and ignorant than I am now, I was at the Great Western Gun show and spend 60$ on a cast AECo Service pilot wing.  The dealer had a RIcker's mount full of these cast pieces of turd, and he simple shrugged and told me if I bought two, I could get them for 100$.  I bought one, and then learned an important lesson about cast AECo wings... they are fakes!  All of them.  There are no non-cast AECo service pilot wings that are vintage to 1944.  They were all made in this guys garage using a propane torch and some sand casting material.

 

So a few years later I had set up at one of the ASMIC shows in So. Cal.  I was by no means a regular and used the 2 or 3 times I set up to get rid of odds and ends. Usually for about a few dollars more than I had invested.  I decided to sell my cast AECo service pilot wings for the 60$ I invested.  ANyone who asked, was told, "Its a fake, I bought it at the GW a few years ago before I knew anything!".  Still, a fair number of guys looked at this wing and asked me all sorts of questions.  THings like "How did I KNOW it was a fake?"  I said, "AECo only made die struck wings and this was bought from a guy who was selling fakes."  I had nothing to hide....  I just wanted it gone and would have given it away if someone had offered me a cold cup of coffee and some bad stock tips. 

 

Anyway, that wing eventually left my table so someone could show it to his friend and I watched it work its away around the room.  From expert to expert, dealer to dealer, collector to collector.  Eventually someone gave me 60$ and it was gone forever.... Or so I thought.

 

A few minutes later one of my dealer/collector buddies came by and asked if I was the fool who had sold a rare CBI POW Service Pilot wing for 60$.  I said, no, I was the fool who bought a fake 4  years earlier for 60$ and just made my money back.  In fact, the irony was that this dealer was the same guy who told me it was a fake when I bought it at the GW!  I kid you not.

Nope, my friend assured me that I had sold a gem... a 600$ wing and that it was soon to go into a very special collection.  That I was a chowderhead for selling it so cheaply.  And I did notice a rush to buy all of my other odds and ends that I had picked up at various swap meets and flea markets over the years.  Hey, I knew they were fake, and I knew where they came from and I never said otherwise.

 

Well, that "rare CBI-made POW service pilot wing" eventually showed up mated to couple of CBI patches, a vintage picture of a C-47, a dog tag and a few other bits and bobs. A few years later, it showed up in a B-17 Stalag grouping with an 8th AAF patch and some other bits and bobs.  Apparently, that CBI-flying POW also ended up flying B-17s in Europe after he escaped from the Japanese before rejoining the USAAF flying missions against the Germans....  I heard that the value kept going up on that wing.

 

My point is that I made no effort NOT to tell the truth, but people went out of their way to not listen to what I was saying.  They didn't know me, assumed I was a chump and thought they would get one over on me. This was years before things like this forum was around and if you went to shows and ran with the "right" crowd you were an expert and if you didn't.. well you were a mark to screw over.  I suspect I could have got more without even trying very hard.

 

The best advice is buy the item, not the story, if its too good to be true, it probably isn't, and only spend what you are comfortable loosing.

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Aaaaaand I have also never seen a valid Stalag POW wing cast with a "makers mark" included on the reverse.  Thats due to the way they were made by the POWs.  They didnt use a 2 sided mould. 

 

Kurt

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