Any chance these are real reunion wings?

[Noelle]

So when I’m dealing with an emotional hit regarding aviation, I make myself feel better by seeking out something to do with my beloved WASP ladies to remind myself that, if they could deal with the crap they did in the 1940s to fly, then I’ve got to get through crap now to fly.  They’re why I’ve wanted to fly my whole life and never gave up even when I was told to my face that things relating to math and science were for boys, told this by my parents and others who should have been in my corner. They’re why I started learning, and a large part of why I haven’t given up even when I’ve been treated pretty meanly.  

 

There’s a reason women pilots are still under 7%, and less if you factor out those who weren’t pushed into quitting while still students.  It’s discouraging, and I’m feeling discouraged right now by some comments made to me by people who shouldn’t have said what they did. I don’t like crying, but have spent much of the past 24 hours in tears anyway. But if I acquire something from the WASPs, then it’s like being kicked in the rump and told I’m not allowed to give up because of roadblocks tossed in front of me, and because of comments by jerks who are trying to tear me down, even when those jerks are supposed to be better than that. And yes, sex has to do with it—these jerks have consistently encouraged men, but been consistently horrid to women, holding women to blatantly different standards and saying we should be expected to prove ourselves more. I’m leaving out a lot of detail because it’s not crap anyone will care about, but it’s still just hard. And I need a boost.

 

Before I go off and emotion-bid money I don’t actually have to spare at the moment, I want some input on if these seem like they could be authentic reunion wings.  Acquiring another authentic set of WWII wings is out of the budget for now, but I need something to help me pull myself through.  The seller says, “VINTAGE POST WORLD WAR TWO WASP WOMEN AIR FORCE SERVICE PILOT WINGS STERLING.  These wings are of post WWII 1950's-1960's era manufacture for WASP reunion purposes.  This is a very nice quality die struck badge.  They measure about 3 inches long.  The reverse features a pin back with a roller catch & is marked "STERLING".  The oval spot you see on the reverse is from where an old antique store price sticker was once placed.  In overall very good condition showing some age tarnish & patina.” They’re currently at $250, but will probably close at much more, and so I need to really minimize the risk right now.

 

 

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Actually, despite the seller's claim that they are die struck, i would say all indications on the back are that they are cast. The only approved reunion wings I know of were made by Josten in 74 and marked as such. I would save your money on these.

[cutiger83]

Noelle, 

 

Don't let morons get you down. Just this week I had to explain to a friend who claims he is supportive of women's rights that unfortunately women are still having to break thru barriers. When he started pushing back that they did not, another female friend eating lunch with us helped back me up. I have had men tell me women didn't do something even after I point them to the official Army website.   Unless you have to deal with this on an almost daily basis people have no clue. 

 

I volunteer at an aviation foundation.  We have a "We Can Do It" billboard for young girls to stand in front of to take their picture.  I always point out to them that women built and flew the B-25 in our hangar.  One open house we had a 3 year old girl run up to the plane and say "propeller"!  I loved it.  Encouraging young girls and telling then to fulfill their dreams is the best pick me up in the world.   When you get down, just remember that there are other women out there just like you fighting the fight and encouraging the next generation of women.  I constantly tell my nieces not to let anyone tell them they can't do something just because they are a girl. 

 

...Kat

[manayunkman]

I can’t believe there are still people who say things like that to women.

 

They must be jealous that they never chased their dream or they are insecure.

 

On the flip side to this there are many people who think that women should have careers and not stay home to raise their kids.

 

My sister lives in DC and stayed home to raise her kids and suffered from the criticism of her neighbors for doing so.

 

My niece graduated in the top 10% at Harvard, my nephew has a full scholarship for his doctorate at Oxford university and they are both fine human beings.

 

Job well done raising very productive children who have a lot to offer to this world.

 

After her kids were out of the house my sister got her doctorate and now has an unbelievable job where she speaks reads writes 5 Asian languages fluently.

 

 

[donaldnol]

2 hours ago, Noelle said:

So when I’m dealing with an emotional hit regarding aviation, I make myself feel better by seeking out something to do with my beloved WASP ladies to remind myself that, if they could deal with the crap they did in the 1940s to fly, then I’ve got to get through crap now to fly.  They’re why I’ve wanted to fly my whole life and never gave up even when I was told to my face that things relating to math and science were for boys, told this by my parents and others who should have been in my corner. They’re why I started learning, and a large part of why I haven’t given up even when I’ve been treated pretty meanly.  

 

There’s a reason women pilots are still under 7%, and less if you factor out those who weren’t pushed into quitting while still students.  It’s discouraging, and I’m feeling discouraged right now by some comments made to me by people who shouldn’t have said what they did. I don’t like crying, but have spent much of the past 24 hours in tears anyway. But if I acquire something from the WASPs, then it’s like being kicked in the rump and told I’m not allowed to give up because of roadblocks tossed in front of me, and because of comments by jerks who are trying to tear me down, even when those jerks are supposed to be better than that. And yes, sex has to do with it—these jerks have consistently encouraged men, but been consistently horrid to women, holding women to blatantly different standards and saying we should be expected to prove ourselves more. I’m leaving out a lot of detail because it’s not crap anyone will care about, but it’s still just hard. And I need a boost.

 

Before I go off and emotion-bid money I don’t actually have to spare at the moment, I want some input on if these seem like they could be authentic reunion wings.  Acquiring another authentic set of WWII wings is out of the budget for now, but I need something to help me pull myself through.  The seller says, “VINTAGE POST WORLD WAR TWO WASP WOMEN AIR FORCE SERVICE PILOT WINGS STERLING.  These wings are of post WWII 1950's-1960's era manufacture for WASP reunion purposes.  This is a very nice quality die struck badge.  They measure about 3 inches long.  The reverse features a pin back with a roller catch & is marked "STERLING".  The oval spot you see on the reverse is from where an old antique store price sticker was once placed.  In overall very good condition showing some age tarnish & patina.” They’re currently at $250, but will probably close at much more, and so I need to really minimize the risk right now.

 

 

that looks like a casting crater

[rustywings]

5 hours ago, rathbonemuseum.com said:

Actually, despite the seller's claim that they are die struck, i would say all indications on the back are that they are cast. The only approved reunion wings I know of were made by Josten in 74 and marked as such. I would save your money on these.

 

I think Mr Rathbone’s evaluation is spot-on! 

 

Don’t allow your prized collection to take a hit with a cheesy reproduction!

[Noelle]

On 12/16/2022 at 6:10 AM, cutiger83 said:

Noelle, 

 

Don't let morons get you down. Just this week I had to explain to a friend who claims he is supportive of women's rights that unfortunately women are still having to break thru barriers. When he started pushing back that they did not, another female friend eating lunch with us helped back me up. I have had men tell me women didn't do something even after I point them to the official Army website.   Unless you have to deal with this on an almost daily basis people have no clue. 

 

I volunteer at an aviation foundation.  We have a "We Can Do It" billboard for young girls to stand in front of to take their picture.  I always point out to them that women built and flew the B-25 in our hangar.  One open house we had a 3 year old girl run up to the plane and say "propeller"!  I loved it.  Encouraging young girls and telling then to fulfill their dreams is the best pick me up in the world.   When you get down, just remember that there are other women out there just like you fighting the fight and encouraging the next generation of women.  I constantly tell my nieces not to let anyone tell them they can't do something just because they are a girl. 

 

...Kat

 

The people I was dealing with a couple days ago are on the record saying that women don’t get held to different standards to men…while holding me to a different standard…and claim that a large percentage of pilots are women despite the cold, hard numbers showing otherwise.  I think that there are some men who so badly want to believe things are equal that they fool themselves.  The intentions may not be malicious, but it’s still allowing harm to continue.  We’ve made strides, absolutely (not a single member of the WASP had a bank account since it wasn’t even legal for women to have bank accounts at that time!!!, among other things), but we still have a was to go, and it hurts sometimes.  It really hurts to be be punched down based on sex, even more when it’s something that’s been such a deep lifelong passion that my husband, when he found out I started lessons before telling him (this is a very large financial thing, and my college degree will literally cost about half the cost, only flying is paid up front…), rather than being mad that I didn’t tell him, he was thrilled out of his mind that I finally did it.

 

If I may ask, what hanger is this B-25 at?  I would LOVE to see one that was built by women!  I’ve been in subs built by women,  and a B-25 flown by women (I did for about 10 minutes, and the PIC was also a woman 😁), but I haven’t seen one built by women as well, and would love to!

[Noelle]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:12 AM, manayunkman said:

I can’t believe there are still people who say things like that to women.

 

They must be jealous that they never chased their dream or they are insecure.

 

On the flip side to this there are many people who think that women should have careers and not stay home to raise their kids.

 

My sister lives in DC and stayed home to raise her kids and suffered from the criticism of her neighbors for doing so.

 

My niece graduated in the top 10% at Harvard, my nephew has a full scholarship for his doctorate at Oxford university and they are both fine human beings.

 

Job well done raising very productive children who have a lot to offer to this world.

 

After her kids were out of the house my sister got her doctorate and now has an unbelievable job where she speaks reads writes 5 Asian languages fluently.

 

 

 

Sadly, the worst offender this week is someone who is in a position of aviation mentor, and this is still his behavior!

 

There’s no way to do it right.  Work outside the home, and your kids are neglected.  Be an at-home parent, and you’re setting a bad example.  I’ve managed, for the part, to find a balance that’s hard to criticize in that I’m an at-home mom in that I don’t have a job outside the house, but I’m in school full time and write books in addition to other stuff.  So I’m seen as setting a good enough example of not being *too* at-home, while being at-home enough for those who think we shouldn’t have lives.  I get criticism from both sides though when it comes to flying, and I try to take the mindset that there’s a lot of envy for how I get to go play with airplanes.  Sometimes the comments hit a nerve, and then my daughter ends up having to try to help me feel encouraged again.  She’s 13.  She shouldn’t have to do that.

 

Incidentally, her Girl Scout vest has a set or goldtone WASP wings in place of her gold/yellow embroidered bridging wings patch.  I let her do what she wants to make her vest her own, even if it means using unofficial things, and she wanted WASP wings.  These ladies have been a source of encouragement to her too.

 

Nothing your sister could do was going to be seen as the correct thing, just like how nothing I can do will be correct.  Sometimes the weight of the criticism is too much for a while, and it’s like all we can do is look at who’ve inspired us and try to draw a bit of strength from them.  For me, that’s our beloved WASPs.  That may sound cheesy, but it’s true.

But FIVE Asian languages….  Holy COW.  Writing those is HARD.  Congrats to her!!

[Noelle]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:35 AM, donaldnol said:

that looks like a casting crater

I was wondering how on earth a sticker could have caused THAT kind of marking.  Yikes.

[Noelle]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:57 AM, rustywings said:

 

I think Mr Rathbone’s evaluation is spot-on! 

 

Don’t allow your prized collection to take a hit with a cheesy reproduction!

Agreed.  Only repros I want are ones willfully chosen for a specific reason.  My daughter’s Girl Scout vest, to use for a scarf, etc.  I don’t want repros that were passed as real. That’s just sad.

[Noelle]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:07 AM, rathbonemuseum.com said:

Actually, despite the seller's claim that they are die struck, i would say all indications on the back are that they are cast. The only approved reunion wings I know of were made by Josten in 74 and marked as such. I would save your money on these.

Thank you.  You are a fount of knowledge and a national treasure in this regard. If I may ask, for my own further education on the matter, what indication do you see that indicate cast?

[MikeK]

2 hours ago, Noelle said:

I was wondering how on earth a sticker could have caused THAT kind of marking.  Yikes.

Actually, looks more like another marking that has been ground off.  Unfortunately not an uncommon occurrence with repros or restrikes.

[cwnorma]

11 hours ago, Noelle said:

...what indication do you see that indicate cast?

Some castings are better than others, but they all fall down in "sharpness" and "shrinkage."  

 

With respect to shrinkage, metals when heated take up more volume than metals at room temperature.  Molten sterling shrinks approximately 10-12% when it cools (depending on alloys).   Advanced fakers will try to overcome shrinkage through using molds 10-15 percent larger than the original or alloys that shrink less.  Most fakers don't have the tools to do this sort of advanced work and simply make molds using original examples cast in common sterling silver.  The results are castings that are smaller than the originals.

 

Sharpness is the other tell-tale.  In the die-striking process, there are certain areas that you would expect to have a sharp, knife-like edge (i.e. where the die shears off excess material at the edges).  In a casting, these areas often end up softened somewhat.  Many experienced collectors liken it to the look of "room temperature butter"--somewhat smoothed, rounded, and shiny.  Examine the images of the back of the badge in question; you will note a distinct rounding to its periphery.  This rounding or softening is also evident in the "STERLING" mark.  Softening has to do with the physics of surface tension.   Molten silver's surface tension physically prevents perfect flow into sharp edges and fine detail.  Advanced fakers try overcome this somewhat by using centrifugal forces.  Normally, the mold is set up to enhance the details of the front.  Thus usually the backs are where evidence of casting is most pronounced.  Careful examination of the badge in question also shows the back is somewhat uneven in spots.  More signs of casting.

 

Hopefully that helps.

 

Warm regards!

 

Chris

[rathbonemuseum.com]

On 12/18/2022 at 3:32 AM, Noelle said:

Thank you.  You are a fount of knowledge and a national treasure in this regard. If I may ask, for my own further education on the matter, what indication do you see that indicate cast?

- the soft rounded edges seen from the back side, all around the wing

- I also don't like the chromatic aspect to the patina, speaks to a chemical that is used to create a false sense of age

- the hardware is consistent with a lot of the current NS Meyer restrikes

- In fact, this wing is very likely a product he who shall not be named. You can see them on his website of classic fakes and reproductions: http://1903.us/World-War-II/WASP-Women-Airforce-Service-Pilots/WWII-WASP-Pilot-Reunion-Wing-Sterling-pin-back-p694.html