Does anyone know anything about a WASP B-16 flight jacket?

[P-59A]

4 minutes ago, Steve D. said:

A B-16 recently sold on ebay for $1,795. It had a lighter collar. ( Item # 394356197053 ) Also made by Sovereign.

I just saw one for sale in an on line store and the asking price was over 3,000.00. This also had a light brown collar.

[P-59A]

9 minutes ago, Steve D. said:

A B-16 recently sold on ebay for $1,795. It had a lighter collar. ( Item # 394356197053 ) Also made by Sovereign.

I just saw one for sale in an on line store and the asking price was over 3,000.00. Now if you goe back and read the page from that  book it clearly shows that the WASP's clearly had a logistics chain of command that approved or disapproved items. That page talks about stockings, bags and shoes. Were is the section that talks about flight gear? Why is that missing? It seems to me if you were going to go to the trouble of digging through papers to confirm the authintisity of an item you would include that documentation for the item you are presenting. Is that information on another page that wasn't posted?

[P-59A]

Ok, I just went to the authority on all things WASP related. I sent the Texas Womans University the photo's of the item and that page from that book. I had an informal conversation with them on this as to what they know, but in all fairness I will wait for thier formal reply and then post that reply.

[Mr.Jerry]

Not being an expert- but that "AF" in the order number bothers me, as that is usually for "Air Force" which you usually see after 1948,  I would expect to see AC as in Steve's B-10 or a AAF.  also the use of non woven label at that time is very odd too.  The use of WASP in the nomenlature puts me off too, I would expect it to be jacket, flight, womans, etc,

[Steve D.]

Hi Jerry!  Well, I'm not trying to "tick you off",  but the initials A.F. were definitely used on WWII dated A-11 watches!

[dmar836]

Yeah, you don't see so much AC after '43 IIRC. When spelled out it always indicated Army Air Forces but when initial are in contracts, etc. I have typically seen AF.

"U.S. Air Forces" is what started showing up on decals and such by Korea.

[Steve D.]

Not trying to beat a dead horse (or alpaca for that matter), but as the B-16 is listed in the Type Designation Sheet, that

is shown in Sweating's book, I 'm pretty convinced that these jackets are original. The copy of the Designation sheet came

from the National Air and Space Museum collection.

[dmar836]

I think the trousers must be rarer as they last only a few months.

[Mr.Jerry]

3 hours ago, Steve D. said:

Hi Jerry!  Well, I'm not trying to "tick you off",  but the initials A.F. were definitely used on WWII dated A-11 watches!

No worries! I keep an open mind - the nice thing about not being an expert is that there is always room to learn!

[P-59A]

This is the responce from TWU after looking at the historical record and historical artifacts in thier collection. I beleive this lays to rest any claims of authintisity of this jacket by the author of the book or anyone else.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Shelia ******

Dec 19, 2022, 2:59 PM (17 hours ago)

to *******, ******, me

David,

 

Thank you for reaching out to the Official WASP Archive with your question about this jacket.

 

Jacqueline Cochran successfully commissioned for the WASP what would become their Santiago Blue dress uniform, and a subsequent blue and white seersucker summer uniform (which was a limited production item very late in the WASP program).  We are quite fortunate to have many examples of WASP uniforms in our Clothing and Textile collections.  We also have in the archive examples of the woolen long underwear the WASP could purchase, "Zoot Suits" (AAF men's surplus coveralls), leather jackets (made for the men, but available for purchase by the WASP), and parkas (AAF issue at cold duty stations) that were used by the WASP during their time of service, as well as photographic evidence of various clothing items in use by WASP during their service. Photographic evidence has been helpful as very few of the lined leather pants the WASP used during cold weather flying have survived.

 

We do not, however, have any examples in any of our WASP Clothing and Textile collections of any outerwear jacket that resembles the jacket (B-16 type) that you inquire about and show in photographs.  Neither do we have photographic evidence of the jacket (B-16 type) being worn by WASP during their service.  There also has been some speculation amongst our team as to the label, as it utilizes "WASP" instead of "W.A.S.P." as that was the official abbreviation during the W.A.S.P. program.  

 

I am attaching information related to WASP uniforms / clothing from the WASP archive.

 

The Special Collections and University Archives is the official archive for the WASP, but also has a considerable number of collections of other women who were military aviators as well.  I took a look at a clothing and textile collection of a female fighter pilot in our archival collections, whose military service was 1979-2005. In her collection there is a outerwear jacket that she was issued during her service; a men's jacket!  This leads us to consider the validity of claims that the WASP program produced specific outerwear jackets, given that women pilots at a later historical date were issued men's outerwear.

 

We apologize that we were not able to confirm definitively the outerwear jacket (B-16 type) was commissioned and made for use by the W.A.S.P. during WWII.

 

Sincerely,

Shelia

WASPUniformRegulations_watermark (1).pdf

[Steve D.]

The response from the folks at TWU is interesting, but it does not explain the fact that the B-16 Jacket  and A-12 trousers are both listed on the Designation Sheets

from the National Air and Space Museum collection. I'm not going to be convinced that these jackets are not genuine until I see some kind of explanation or statement

from NASM.  I strongly believe that these jackets were ordered so close to the end of the WASP program, that they were never or rarely issued. That might explain why none

of them were donated by WASP's to their collection. It's pretty hard for me to believe that someone was able to manipulate the Designation sheets with the goal of selling 

a forged WASP jacket. Note that the Designation sheet lists both the jacket and trousers as WASP not W.A.S.P.  The examples of these jackets that have surfaced since WWII

may have been sold on the open market by the company who made them , after the termination of the WASP program. There are many examples of uniforms and equipment

that were produced so late in the war, that they never saw combat. I think that is the case with these sets.

 

I have 2 pairs of WASP blue coveralls in my collection. One set does not have pockets on the knees. All of the other pics I've seen of these coveralls have pockets. Finally, after an

extensive search, I found a picture of a WASP wearing a pair without pockets. The point I'm trying to make is that the photographic proof may be hard to find. We do have at least

one pic of a WASP wearing this set and that is the pic in Sweating's book. Certainly, if these jackets were made so close to the end of the WASP program, there would not be many

pics of WASP's wearing them.

[Steve D.]

In regard to the WASP uniform regulations, the copy form TWU shows that it was dated December 1944. The B-16 was listed in the Designation Sheets as Standard issue not until May 1944. As such, if the Designation sheet is original, then the B-16 would not have existed when the WASP uniform regulations were made. The WASP program ended in December 1944.

That means that there were only 6 months between the time that the jacket and trousers were listed as Standard until the program ended.

[dmar836]

Interesting stuff.

 

Has anyone written the NASM? They have messed up do many things and lost so much I cannot see them having any earth shaking info on this but who knows.

 

On 12/2/2022 at 10:39 AM, Steve D. said:

The QMC Historical Studies does not have a reference to the B-16,
 

 

TWU doesn't recognize.

 

Appeared the whole thing hung on Sweating's book with the exception of Steve's B-16 directly from the WASP vet.

 

What we need to find is correspondence between Cochran and authorities giving permission to buy up unused WASP jackets and distribute to all WASPs who had served.

 

Not picking on Steve at all - his jacket is the hanging chad IMO.

 

Dave

[dmar836]

This reduces the likelihood of much else being approved or procured for the WASP program by three or so months from the 8 month window.

 

[Steve D.]

Just a point of clarification. My set came from the collection of Fred Sleightam. Fred built his collection by contacting WASP's at their reunions.

I can't prove that my set came directly from a WASP, but I strongly believe that it was included in the items he obtained directly from the veterans.

[P-59A]

1 hour ago, Steve D. said:

Just a point of clarification. My set came from the collection of Fred Sleightam. Fred built his collection by contacting WASP's at their reunions.

I can't prove that my set came directly from a WASP, but I strongly believe that it was included in the items he obtained directly from the veterans.

Steve, With all due respect TWU as evidenced by a text sent to me after thanking them for thier due dilligence considers this the definitive word on this jacket.  

"David, you are quite welcome.  We are all too well aware that unscrupulous people abound, and in this instance we were happy to speak to this questions as definitively as possible.  We were happy to be of service.  Happy holidays!

~Shelia". Pending some document unknown to TWU, who by all accounts it thee authority on all things related to W.A.S.P.'S and the W.A.S.P. program I am confidant they have layed this matter to rest...for now. From this point foward it would take irrafutable evidence to prove beyond the shadow of any doubt the authintisity of these jackets. If anyone can find that smoking gun I will be more that happy to send it to Sheila for thier consideration.

[Steve D.]

I mean no disrespect either, but your letter from TWU stated that they cannot definitively state that the B-16 was commissioned and used by the WASPs during WWII.

On this matter, I totally agree, as I don't believe it was used either. However, based on the fact that the jacket is listed in the Type Designation sheet, I believe that the 

existing examples of this jacket were in fact produced for the WASP program during WWII, but not issued. As I'm retired and have plenty of free time, I'll try to contact someone

at the National Air and Space Museum.  The picture of the WASP wearing the set in Sweatings' s book is a Smithsonian Institute photo. How does TWU respond to this pic? How do

they respond to the set being listed in the Designation sheets?

I highly doubt that the Smithsonian and NASM are working with the folks who have allegedly made copies of this set.

 

[P-59A]

Steve, I sent links to TWU on this conversation and to the conversation on Wehrmacht Awards were I first saw this jacket. They were made aware of that photo and the book along with all the comments made. They looked at that photo along with every other photo in the archives and determined that the jacket in question was not any of those jackets. They stated as much. I believe they did due diligence in going through the records. If anything in writing existed about anything related to that jacket in the records they would have said something.  Many people were tasked with looking into this. I am sure you are familuar with TWU and the WASP archives they maintain. No one has any archives of the WASP program greater or larger than thiers. 

[P-59A]

Steve, I sent links to TWU on this conversation and to the conversation on Wehrmacht Awards were I first saw this jacket. They were made aware of that photo and the book along with all the comments made. They looked at that photo along with every other photo in the archives and determined that the jacket in question was not any of those jackets. They stated as much. I believe they did due diligence in going through the records. If anything in writing existed about anything related to that jacket in the records they would have said something.  Many people were tasked with looking into this. I am sure you are familuar with TWU and the WASP archives they maintain. No one has any archives of the WASP program greater or larger than thiers. Back when we first found Marie Michell Robinson's personal effects at that crash site Betty Jean Williams tried to strong arm me into donatiing those items to TWU. She was addimate that if we failed to find Marie's brother that I do so. At that time I had many conversations with the curator of the WASP collection and would have donated those items to them if we hadn't found Marie's brother. The emails I recieved from Shiela were CC ed to others at TWU. I omitted those people from this post. As I said they did a full court press on this and found nothing that authinticates the jacket in question as being in the records..any records. Not in the written record. Not in the photograpic records or in thier collectionof artifacts. Is it possible the record of that jacket is missing from Cochran's papers? Anything is possible, but I doubt it. A flight jacket would have generated paperwork all over the place and it would have shown up all over the place. If you do find something you are willing to hang your hat on you better believe I will pass it on to hear what they say.    Yours David

[P-59A]

One other obsevation, If you conceed that flight jacket and pants were made after the WASP program ended then that photo can not be what you have. I have asked TWU to look into that photo. When it was taken, were it was taken, who is in the photo and all other photos related to that person at that photo shoot at that place on that day. I have also asked them to look into the authintisity of that document. It gives a date for that jacket. If nothing comes to light supporting that document then...well...lets see what they say.

[manayunkman]

Looks like she is wearing an overall not a jacket and pants.

[Steve D.]

I believe that the jacket was made sometime around May 1944. According to the letter posted by dmar836, the program was to close no later than December 1944. That letter was dated October 1944, This means there would have been very little time for the jacket and trousers to have been issued. The picture in Sweeting's book looks like a pair of A-12 trousers and a B-16 jacket similar to the sets I own. I look forward to seeing more of what this investigation can find! I don't doubt the credibility of the folks at TWU, I just find it difficult to see why Sweeting would have included this information in his book were it not based on factual information.

[dmar836]

But it sounds like Sweating is all we can hang our hats on.

TWU is not to be trusted.

QMC Historical Studies does not acknowledge.

NASM/SI hasn't been queried.

One can understand the questions of these unicorns. Certainly they exist but it sounds like they are first "revealed" by Sweating. Honestly, he has so many designations in his list that I have not only never heard of but have never seen. I have to wonder what paperwork must have been available that legitimized an item as standardized. Not hating on him or you but there appears to be no paper trail and now we are told we have to disprove tradition. I hope I'm wrong here but there just isn't anything to pile on here.

I really wonder if the WASP in his book could have been wearing the standard men's gear. Says it's a SI photo so...

Seriously, rereading the post, do you have any detailed pics of the boots you have that Sweating also mentions. Those could be quite interesting as they have a similar origin.

All good stuff,

Dave

[HUD69]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:41 PM, Steve D. said:

A B-16 recently sold on ebay for $1,795. It had a lighter collar. ( Item # 394356197053 ) Also made by Sovereign.

That was this one?

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/wwii-usaaf-scarce-wasp-pilots-b16-bomber-jacket

 

Here is also one on a Japanese website:

https://strato-shopping.com/items/5e0991a1da896471bfa80621

 

Also another book:

US Army Air Force (2)

By Gordon L. Rottman, states the jacket and combination. Placing it between the mens B-15 and the nurses B-17

 

I am no expert, just looked what I could find. 

 

Ron

[P-59A]

9 hours ago, HUD69 said:

That was this one?

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/wwii-usaaf-scarce-wasp-pilots-b16-bomber-jacket

 

Here is also one on a Japanese website:

https://strato-shopping.com/items/5e0991a1da896471bfa80621

 

Also another book:

US Army Air Force (2)

By Gordon L. Rottman, states the jacket and combination. Placing it between the mens B-15 and the nurses B-17

 

I am no expert, just looked what I could find. 

 

Ron

Ron, The only qualified expert to chime in on this is TWU. They say nothing in the historical record confirms this jacket as being authintic. At this stage of the research one has to prove TWU is wrong. I don't think thats gonna happen.