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Painted helmets question


grahamaham
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So I have a question for helmet collectors. I see in many painted helmet discussion that a dead give away to a fake painted helmet is paint over scratches equals fake. I don't own a painted helmet and probably will never purchase one as I would probably fall for a fake. So what is the likelihood of say a soldier being issued a helmet during training and retaining it and it gets scratched as all gear does and then once they went overseas applied paint or camouflage? Isn't it likely that there would then be paint over scratches. Or, due to that paint job being applied within a 2 year period of issue would it be irrelevant or simply just have the same wear as the original paint job? Thanks in advance.

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There can certainly be scratches under camouflage paint, as the helmet may have been issued months or years before being camouflaged. German helmets sometimes have multiple layers of camo, for example winter camo under tropical camo, or vuce versa. 
My "Marvin Moles" helmet has his name carved under the camo paint, for a simple example: 

 

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I agree, it is more about "does the age and wear make sense" - many times fakes are artificially aged and distressed, usually more so and in ways than you would see on any legitimate helmet. It is not an exact science but being a member here will help- there are pages of some great examples of real helmets. (and also many bad ones pointed out)

But they are still out there- you just have to be cautious- and don't jump in head first!

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The bigger question is how these consumables survived in such numbers. Were they saved and not sent through the depot for updates, repairs, and refurb? Did helmets not get repainted for victory parades or occupational duty. Sure there are survivors but many act as if they are common.

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22 million M1s made during the war; 8 million ground troops in the US, a six year war. Only 80 years ago. Yes, stuff is still around with collectable helmets being relatively easy to find.

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I think a lot of guys brought them home.  They weren't supposed to, and as you say many were turned in, refurbed and reissued (even into the 1980s), but  I would guess that at least 10% of the 20 million came back to the US (or never left) and went home in duffel bags.  And I think if you had a painted one, you had better than average chance you were going to find a way to keep it. I have gotten several from vets & thier families.  Funny story - one of he neatest painted AB jump helmets I ever saw came out of Wis- Bill Scott had it- it had 3 parachutes on it and maybe 2 gliders, something like that, and the solider that ended up with it was just given it to wear at the victory parade in NY.

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7 hours ago, grahamaham said:

...once they went overseas applied paint or camouflage?

 

1 hour ago, ccmax said:

...with collectable helmets being relatively easy to find.

 

Sorry. Was considering the OP's actual question.

Overall production numbers and hopeful dreams aside, I'll still insist an original, battle-worn, unit painted or camouflaged M-1 is not easy to find.  

 

 

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Very hard to find unit market WW2  helmets from a vet and hard to find a vet with any kind of helmet at least in the past 50 plus years.

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20 hours ago, dmar836 said:

 

 

Sorry. Was considering the OP's actual question.

Overall production numbers and hopeful dreams aside, I'll still insist an original, battle-worn, unit painted or camouflaged M-1 is not easy to find.  

 

 

 
Original battle worn M1’s are very easy to find. Proof of where they were worn is the hard part without a positive ID. I have around 8 helmets in my collection out of about 80 that are fully ID’d and I know where they were during the war. One of them I actually have a picture of the guy wearing it during the Battle of the Bulge. 

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King, I think we are talking about different things. Are these 8 vetted helmets all unit painted and/or theater camo painted? Not that some collectors don't specialize on those.

I started a thread earlier in the year asking for pics of only helmets that were unit painted AND had actual first-hand vet provenance. There are plenty in collections but thread flopped here immediately with the most enthusiastic showing their favorite painted lids from all manner of sources - all but directly from the vet. Proven beyond doubt painted or camo helmets are not common to find. To me a dealer or seller with a story of originality without a letter, photo, or other proof is just too open as this is done daily on eBay and elsewhere. I'm not mad at anyone and am not claiming expertise but I think we can all be honest here. 

If I may interject for the OP, he might be questioning the common conception that "custom", period paint over scratches automatically casts doubt on a helmet as painted by a faker. Sometimes that is a clue when accompanied by other factors but obviously isn't always the case. Few will give a yes or no to this as it's complicated. I do think we see a lot of questionable lids being sold recently for amounts that imply the buyers feel they are real when many hear see obvious issues. Painted over chips may or may not be a big factor in those.

 

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I have been very lucky with what I have been able to find, but then again as Thomas Jefferson said: "I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." - I get up at zero dark 30 to hit the flea markets and sales, keep my paddle up at auctions, network with other collectors (and help them find what they want), and I have have more than my share come into my shop as people know that I collect helmets and pay well for them. (I just got my second M2 D bail paratrooper from a guy that paid $100 at a rummage sale for it) are these things common? well no, and they do sell fast, but they are still out there. I guess that is my point. Today in fact I just got in a rank painted FS/SB Schluter that walked into the shop, probably late 40's early 50's painted, but still really cool in a Sgt. Rock kind of way!

 

20221119_140610.jpg

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Dmar-

I see what you are saying about documented helmets- and I would agree with that- I have a few that were direct veteran purchases, and my latest unit painted one - a 1st ID Major's helmet was from the daughter and I almost fell over when she had a photo of him wearing the helmet in formation! (thankfully I was able to talk her into selling me that as well!),  But there are plenty of undocumented painted helmets that are real that are out there. - (just maybe not as many as the fake ones)-

 

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I do think there is something to be said for “indirect vet purchases” as well. It is 2022 and it’s just less common these days for the granddaughter to have grandpas old helmet. They get shifted around over time. From the garage to an estate sale to eBay to a collector to another collector etc. Also it’s amazing to me how people don’t really care about this stuff anymore. We are fanatics haha …. But I step outside my door and these artifacts are Junk … not orbs or history as they are to me. 
 

As Jerry was saying it takes hard work and experience to tell a good from a bad. And not just forensic analysis of the helmet either. Your BS Detector has to be strong if there’s a “story”. Some descriptions of helmets being sold on dealer sites or eBay listings are laughable. But understated ones and woodwork finds …. I think there are are still alot out there.

 

I collect German Helmets as well. Yes many are named and 0 of mine can be traced directly to a soldier. I have the last name sure but In the M1 world. This is defintely more possible. Better records. Family’s proudly displayed these items. Also helmets are marked better w laundry and service numbers. Etc. Not so much in German Helm world. 
 

I think it is healthy to be skeptical. But don’t let that make you miss something

 

Z

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12 minutes ago, Paddyd00 said:

I do think there is something to be said for “indirect vet purchases” as well. It is 2022 and it’s just less common these days for the granddaughter to have grandpas old helmet. They get shifted around over time. From the garage to an estate sale to eBay to a collector to another collector etc. Also it’s amazing to me how people don’t really care about this stuff anymore. We are fanatics haha …. But I step outside my door and these artifacts are Junk … not orbs or history as they are to me. 
 

As Jerry was saying it takes hard work and experience to tell a good from a bad. And not just forensic analysis of the helmet either. Your BS Detector has to be strong if there’s a “story”. Some descriptions of helmets being sold on dealer sites or eBay listings are laughable. But understated ones and woodwork finds …. I think there are are still alot out there.

 

I collect German Helmets as well. Yes many are named and 0 of mine can be traced directly to a soldier. I have the last name sure but In the M1 world. This is defintely more possible. Better records. Family’s proudly displayed these items. Also helmets are marked better w laundry and service numbers. Etc. Not so much in German Helm world. 
 

I think it is healthy to be skeptical. But don’t let that make you miss something

 

Z


True words brother and great advice 

 

- Dean 

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Apologies. I didn't mean to imply there are NO good painted helmets without provenance - that would be silly. I suppose I became a bit triggered when one refers to the types of helmets the OP asked about (theater camo'd, for one) as being, "... relatively easy to find." I think that too can encourage naivety.

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There are a decent amount of "unique" M1s out there including camo, unit marked, rank marked, or personalized in some way.  They are not cheap or easy to find, but they do exist. 

 

To answer your original question about scratches under the paint: 

 

The reason you see scratches under the insignia cited as a main reason to debunk a helmet is because fakers typically use beater helmets that do not have value on their own.  For example you will see a lot more fake paint on a $50 swivel bail beat to death with no straps than you would a fixed bail with straps in good shape.  Some people create fakes out of expensive sets in their own right which are harder to identify.

 

In my opinion, in-theatre insignia painting (after scratches/shell damage) was possible, but not the norm.  Almost all unit-painted insignia you see originated from regiment wide directives completed before entering combat zones.  I think it was more likely that insignia was painted over/scratched off than added while in theatre.  For the most part, painted insignia of any form shrank or was omitted as the war went on.  I have an example where a larger corporal/sergeant insignia was painted over and replaced with a smaller one.  The post war/occupation/parade helmets I have seen with added insignia were overpainted green as well and would not have scratches or damage directly under the insignia.

 

Obviously this is all just anecdotal and based on my own experiences, as there are no real numbers or evidence to rely on.

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