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P-63 collides with a B-17 "Texas Raiders" over Texas


Teamski
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You guys may think these are old and shouldn’t be flying but the KC-135’s that we are flying the hell out of today came out less than 10 years after the last 17. 
 

Think about that…

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People have spent many hours restoring rare aircraft. Some without pay.  It's better to have a historic, pristine B-17 in a museum for people to see

than a burned out pile of junk in a field.

 

Once a rare piece of aviation history is gone, it's gone forever.  

 

 

W

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Wharfmaster said:

People have spent many hours restoring rare aircraft. Some without pay.  It's better to have a historic, pristine B-17 in a museum for people to see

than a burned out pile of junk in a field.

 

Once a rare piece of aviation history is gone, it's gone forever.  

 

 

W

 

 

That’s a pretty extreme alternative - but I get that you’re trying to make a point.

 

Things to consider:

 

1) There aren’t a lot of museums that have the indoor space to house a B-17 - that don’t already have one.  So what, you put it out in a field to let the elements slowly destroy it?  That is the way that a LOT of historical military vehicles and armor has been lost.

 

2) Air shows represent a significant source of monetary donations, which would be lost otherwise.  Think of them as metaphors for what zoos do for awareness and conservation of wildlife.

 

3) We - as a society - are quick to want to strip rights away from people based on statistical anomalies and our own preferences.  I will refrain from politics, and simply note that air show tragedies like this are exceedingly rare.  So I would hope that we would be more progressive and sensible thinkers than to get out the “ban brush” every time a <1% situation occurs.  

 

All told, while fun for debate, it’s none of our business what owners of these planes do with them.  Since you started with your extreme “burned out pile of junk” comment, I’ll end with one.  While they definitely wouldn’t, if the owner of a WWII warbird wanted to cut it up and sell it as keychains, it would be their right.  

 

Many years ago, I remember seeing a video where a young man brought his grandpa’s WWII 1911 to an artist sculptor, to have him weld it to a coffin being made of firearms.  This was as a statement against gun violence.  Same rule applies - he owned it, it was his right.

 

 

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Read this yesterday, and it is a really good opinion about the good of airshows in general.

 

https://www.kwtx.com/2022/11/15/waco-pilot-witnessed-war-planes-crash-dallas-airshow/

 

I think that seeing them fly is amazing and can deliver such an impact. As far as machines and being old and running . . . think of all the cars that are that old or way older and still running. Way more auto accidents and fatalities in general. Doesn't stop car shows and car restorations. Start looking at the statistics for crashes of modern aircraft. Those happen all the time, too. Sad, but when you look at how many flying hours are on these things, there are a a lot fewer than the news hype makes it seem when going through one.

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Persian Gulf Command

I wanted to give an opinion of the tragic event that happened in Texas, discussing the care taking aspect of these Aircraft and leave it at that. However, I need to include this in response to the posts that have followed. What happened at the event was a stunt performed by precious, irreplaceable, vintage aircraft. The "Show" wanted to have the quicker Pursuit Aircraft overtake the slower B-17 Bomber.  I believe, the P-63 was one of only two of its type in existence and the B-17 was one of only a small number that are currently air worthy.  OK, it's wonderful to see these in the air, I agree! The millionaires and restoration professionals want to exhibit the worth of their hobby and mechanical skill, I understand!  However, performing Stunts with these Aircraft is totally unnecessary and a folly of exhibition!

 

I can only hope that this tragic event will give those involved with these demonstrations pause in the future, regarding how they wish to show an adoring public, these Aircrafts' capabilities.  It would be a shame if at a future time, aircraft enthusiasts were told that there were surviving examples but no more of these elegant and historic craft survive, because there were people who owned them, but decided to allow them to be destroyed simply because it was their protective to do so.

 

Thank you, I am not attempting to change anyone's opinion. just feel strongly about expressing my thoughts regarding what has happened. 

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6 hours ago, Blacksmith said:

That’s a pretty extreme alternative - but I get that you’re trying to make a point.

 

Things to consider:

 

1) There aren’t a lot of museums that have the indoor space to house a B-17 - that don’t already have one.  So what, you put it out in a field to let the elements slowly destroy it?  That is the way that a LOT of historical military vehicles and armor has been lost.

 

2) Air shows represent a significant source of monetary donations, which would be lost otherwise.  Think of them as metaphors for what zoos do for awareness and conservation of wildlife.

 

3) We - as a society - are quick to want to strip rights away from people based on statistical anomalies and our own preferences.  I will refrain from politics, and simply note that air show tragedies like this are exceedingly rare.  So I would hope that we would be more progressive and sensible thinkers than to get out the “ban brush” every time a <1% situation occurs.  

 

All told, while fun for debate, it’s none of our business what owners of these planes do with them.  Since you started with your extreme “burned out pile of junk” comment, I’ll end with one.  While they definitely wouldn’t, if the owner of a WWII warbird wanted to cut it up and sell it as keychains, it would be their right.  

 

Many years ago, I remember seeing a video where a young man brought his grandpa’s WWII 1911 to an artist sculptor, to have him weld it to a coffin being made of firearms.  This was as a statement against gun violence.  Same rule applies - he owned it, it was his right.

 

 

 

Who said anything about taking a person's rights away?  If an aircraft owner wishes to fly a very valuable and historic vintage plane, that's fine with me.

However, you need to decide if it is worth the risk.  It has everything to do with how, when and where the plane is flown.  It is very lucky people on the ground

were not killed.   Again, once a valuable piece of history is lost, it's lost forever.  Planes crash, vessels sink, vehicles wreck and people die.

 

The Government can tell you what you can and can't do with you grandfather's historic Medal of Honor that you own.  Perhaps the politicians will do the same with other historic stuff.

 

W

 

 

 

 

 

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Have any of you been on the 99 going to Fresno? If so then you have seen that B-17 that has been thier forever.  "

Tulare, California: Preston's Pride: B-17 Flying Fortress

Fenced display at the highway entrance to Mefford Field includes a Vietnam memorial, a F4 Phantom fighter jet, and "Preston's Pride," a shiny World War II B-17 bomber that's been parked here since 1958."The first time I saw that B-17 I was a kid in the early 70's. I always stop and walk around it when I am in that neck ofthe woods.That bird started a facenation with warbirds. I am gonna tell you right hear and now there is a diffence between watching war footage of a B-17 over Europe and building a 1/48 scale B-17. There is a differance between  building a 1/48 scale B-17 and looking at a gate guard B-17. There is a differance between looking at a gate guard and walking through a warbird. There is a differance between walking through a warbird and flying in a warbird. Flyingin a warbird is as close as any of us will ever get to having any idea of what it must have been like to fly in combat. I have been to over 140 military crash sites here in Calif. I have been to a number of B-24 crash sites and almost all of them resulted in 10 men dead. I have been lucky enough to talk to two guys who managed to get out of thier B-24's before they crashed. After hearing about what happened to them as their B-24's were going down I had a better idea of how lucky they were to get out. After  I went up in a B-24 it was crystal clear to me why so many didn't get out. The only way for me to understand it was to go up in one. As for that B-17 in Tulare, Its still there. Looking at it is fun. I remember when my dad and I first saw it way back when. Looking at it and knowing what it was to fly in it are worlds apart. 

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7 minutes ago, P-59A said:

Have any of you been on the 99 going to Fresno? If so then you have seen that B-17 that has been thier forever.  "

Tulare, California: Preston's Pride: B-17 Flying Fortress

Fenced display at the highway entrance to Mefford Field includes a Vietnam memorial, a F4 Phantom fighter jet, and "Preston's Pride," a shiny World War II B-17 bomber that's been parked here since 1958."The first time I saw that B-17 I was a kid in the early 70's. I always stop and walk around it when I am in that neck ofthe woods.That bird started a facenation with warbirds. I am gonna tell you right hear and now there is a diffence between watching war footage of a B-17 over Europe and building a 1/48 scale B-17. There is a differance between  building a 1/48 scale B-17 and looking at a gate guard B-17. There is a differance between looking at a gate guard and walking through a warbird. There is a differance between walking through a warbird and flying in a warbird. Flyingin a warbird is as close as any of us will ever get to having any idea of what it must have been like to fly in combat. I have been to over 140 military crash sites here in Calif. I have been to a number of B-24 crash sites and almost all of them resulted in 10 men dead. I have been lucky enough to talk to two guys who managed to get out of thier B-24's before they crashed. After hearing about what happened to them as their B-24's were going down I had a better idea of how lucky they were to get out. After  I went up in a B-24 it was crystal clear to me why so many didn't get out. The only way for me to understand it was to go up in one. As for that B-17 in Tulare, Its still there. Looking at it is fun. I remember when my dad and I first saw it way back when. Looking at it and knowing what it was to fly in it are worlds apart. 

 

 

You got to ride a B-24? Wow! My GGGUncle flew B-17s (I think model Es) and B-24s. He died in a B-24. We did get to see one a few years ago when one came to Akron. We got to walk in it and watch it fly. Wow. Really brought it home. As far as the B-17s . . . nothing like getting to tour and see them way back when. Been many times to Dayton AFB and seen theirs on display, but it isn't the same. For one, it seems super small under the wing of the B-56, which really makes most of those WWII planes a bit unwhelming, I think. But you can't get close or see in, and it is cool to go in! :) Flying in one must be cool! Where'd you get to sit?

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Everybody sits in the waistgunners section with backs to the bulkhead on take off. When its airborn everyone is free to mill about, The only off limits were the belly turret and anything beyond the back of the Pilot/CoPilot seat backs. We flew out of Long Beach so we went over the Pacific and over the industrial part of San Piedro harbour. I took tons of picks from nose to tail.

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Brian Dentino

I was fortunate enough to get to ride/fly in the B-17 back in 2018 and it was an experience I will never forget.  Was also lucky and was able to get up close and watch the C-47 "Hairless Joe" this past summer.  While I understand the angst with some saying these should sit as static displays there is nothing like hearing the roar of the engines, and if lucky enough being able to ride in one and feel the graceful power and smell the smoke/exhaust on one of these old war birds.  It certainly was an experience I will never forget and will not ever fail to appreciate what these birds and the men who crewed them must have went through.  

B-17.jpg

C-47.jpg

C-47-1.jpg

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2 hours ago, Brian Dentino said:

I was fortunate enough to get to ride/fly in the B-17 back in 2018 and it was an experience I will never forget.  Was also lucky and was able to get up close and watch the C-47 "Hairless Joe" this past summer.  While I understand the angst with some saying these should sit as static displays there is nothing like hearing the roar of the engines, and if lucky enough being able to ride in one and feel the graceful power and smell the smoke/exhaust on one of these old war birds.  It certainly was an experience I will never forget and will not ever fail to appreciate what these birds and the men who crewed them must have went through.  

B-17.jpg

 

 

What was the name of that B-17? I've got to dig out the pics of us on the B-17s. Can't remember if they were digital or still film. Sis would remember . . . Still have the T-Shirts from both!

 

2 hours ago, P-59A said:

Everybody sits in the waistgunners section with backs to the bulkhead on take off. When its airborn everyone is free to mill about, The only off limits were the belly turret and anything beyond the back of the Pilot/CoPilot seat backs. We flew out of Long Beach so we went over the Pacific and over the industrial part of San Piedro harbour. I took tons of picks from nose to tail.

 

Have you posted any pics?

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Brian Dentino
14 hours ago, stratasfan said:

 

What was the name of that B-17? I've got to dig out the pics of us on the B-17s. Can't remember if they were digital or still film. Sis would remember . . . Still have the T-Shirts from both!---------It was the Madras Maiden Elizabeth.

 

 

Have you posted any pics?

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

An excellent video on the preliminary aspects of the accident by a subject matter expert in Aviation...He really breaks downs what's going on during the maneuver's...

details the air show box etc...

 

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