eBay seller with no-good M1s

[elh1311]

35 minutes ago, billmunny said:

Thousands spent on junk 😳

Oh wow. 2k for a repro not worth $200. 

[ispy]

......stupid is alive and multiplying! Wow what else can you say!

[Nickman983]

Where do all of these helmets go? I almost never see them pop up on a thread here. Are the people buying these fakes assuming they're good and happy to take the seller's word on it? 

[Sneaky]

1 minute ago, Nickman983 said:

Where do all of these helmets go? I almost never see them pop up on a thread here. Are the people buying these fakes assuming they're good and happy to take the seller's word on it? 

Most of the folks on this forum know better than to blindly buy things, or are knowledgeable enough to authenticate it themselves.

 

On that note, if I spent $2000 on a poor fake helmet, I wouldn’t go posting it anywhere after the fact haha.

[Nickman983]

32 minutes ago, Sneaky said:

Most of the folks on this forum know better than to blindly buy things, or are knowledgeable enough to authenticate it themselves.

 

On that note, if I spent $2000 on a poor fake helmet, I wouldn’t go posting it anywhere after the fact haha.

Yea, I guess my point more so was not that current members here are buying these but that the people who are buying these are OK with dropping that kind of money without seemingly getting a second opinion.

 

I'm assuming these buyers have absolutely no idea what they bought outside of what the listing says, which is just insane to me.

[elh1311]

4 minutes ago, Nickman983 said:

Yea, I guess my point more so was not that current members here are buying these but that the people who are buying these are OK with dropping that kind of money without seemingly getting a second opinion.

 

I'm assuming these buyers have absolutely no idea what they bought outside of what the listing says, which is just insane to me.

The listing descriptions are....vague....but even they say "most likely a restoration". 

[Blacksmith]

Nothing to do with the subject helmets of this topic; but in general:

 

Historians can accurately predict the decline of a civilization based on established factors.

 

I believe that analogous indications are present for the decline of a collecting hobby.  It’s not when capacity exceeds demand, as that is a consequence - it’s what is causing the increase in capacity, decline in demand, or (worse) both.

 

There is a point at which fakes have flooded the market, and “experts” no longer agree on real / repro, that originality really no longer matters.  
 

Every time that a fake medal, uniform, or other piece of militaria sells for the price of an original, all originals lose value incrementally - not with a bang, but with a whisper.  
 

I’ve never collected Civil War militaria, but I’ve heard those that did describe a similar trajectory - culminating in a widespread exodus.  

[elh1311]

That's a great observation and a sobering one. 

[Dave T]

6 hours ago, billmunny said:

Thousands spent on junk 😳

🤷‍♂️

Thats how alot (most) people (non-collectors) feel about all of these items we collect whether is original or fake.

[Sneaky]

22 minutes ago, Blacksmith said:

Nothing to do with the subject helmets of this topic; but in general:

 

Historians can accurately predict the decline of a civilization based on established factors.

 

I believe that analogous indications are present for the decline of a collecting hobby.  It’s not when capacity exceeds demand, as that is a consequence - it’s what is causing the increase in capacity, decline in demand, or (worse) both.

 

There is a point at which fakes have flooded the market, and “experts” no longer agree on real / repro, that originality really no longer matters.  
 

Every time that a fake medal, uniform, or other piece of militaria sells for the price of an original, all originals lose value incrementally - not with a bang, but with a whisper.  
 

I’ve never collected Civil War militaria, but I’ve heard those that did describe a similar trajectory - culminating in a widespread exodus.  

I certainly see what you mean and agree, but I’ll keep everyone hopeful by reminding you German militaria (despite fakes being mass produced and sold as originals since the 50s) has been on the incline of both popularity and price since 1945. 
 

I do fear fakes becoming more convincing, however. We have seen M1 fakes get astronomically better in the last 10 years. Still, new(ish) technology such as electronic microscopes have revolutionized the way we look at M1s and how we authenticate them for the better.

 

Civil War Militaria is an interesting case. Ive had the privilege to talk to a few advanced collectors about this topic in the past, and they chalk it up to a few things. The period of the conflict (items age and their materials/construction) and the slim amount of “collectors” and bring-backs we saw during the period are the big ones. Supply produced at the time is also another basic but important factor.

 

Second Indian war stuff is a great example of how old and commonly faked militaria can still be relatively affordable and common.

 

I hope I can spread some positivity

[Blacksmith]

1 hour ago, Sneaky said:

I certainly see what you mean and agree, but I’ll keep everyone hopeful by reminding you German militaria (despite fakes being mass produced and sold as originals since the 50s) has been on the incline of both popularity and price since 1945. 
 

I do fear fakes becoming more convincing, however. We have seen M1 fakes get astronomically better in the last 10 years. Still, new(ish) technology such as electronic microscopes have revolutionized the way we look at M1s and how we authenticate them for the better.

 

Civil War Militaria is an interesting case. Ive had the privilege to talk to a few advanced collectors about this topic in the past, and they chalk it up to a few things. The period of the conflict (items age and their materials/construction) and the slim amount of “collectors” and bring-backs we saw during the period are the big ones. Supply produced at the time is also another basic but important factor.

 

Second Indian war stuff is a great example of how old and commonly faked militaria can still be relatively affordable and common.

 

I hope I can spread some positivity

With all due respect, I feel that we owe more than messages of hope and positivity, like being real.  It seems like every time the health of the hobby comes up, it’s met with the same ‘amen chorus’ of “prices only going up, up, up”, “there’ll always be a market for high-end pieces”, etc.

 

I get it, a lot of collectors are sitting on thousands and thousands of dollars of stuff, and don’t want to think about or acknowledge a future in which the market tanks.  
 

I don’t have to prove anything, as time will do that.  My main point is that - if we are really custodians of this hobby, and have any prayer for a future - we have to take active steps to protect it.  This includes no longer standing on the sidelines while bad pieces get peddled - no matter who the seller is.  As I said above, every time a humped-up piece gets passed as original, the bubble gets a little tighter.

[Bugme]

13 hours ago, Blacksmith said:

...if we are really custodians of this hobby, and have any prayer for a future - we have to take active steps to protect it.  This includes no longer standing on the sidelines while bad pieces get peddled - no matter who the seller is...

 

Do you have a proposal? Because a lot of us have been trying to control this bowl of buttered spaghetti with all the effectiveness of a tweezers for decades. Over and over again, seasoned and experienced collectors have given up trying to help on forums as those posting are often like forum Member: Kloss... rude, obnoxious, confrontational, unable to be corrected, insulting, unteachable, unhelpful and unbearable.  Most experienced collectors have formed small groups and talk amongst themselves. The good ones on the USMF are still here, they watch but, remain silent. And who can blame them?

 

Go to the SOS... the place for the best of the best is loaded with boatloads of fakes. It has spiraled out of control and I doubt it will ever get better. I have sold off most of my collection and am sitting on just a few nice pieces. Who knows, I may let those go and get back to enjoying life without helmets.

[Nickman983]

3 hours ago, Bugme said:

 

Do you have a proposal? Because a lot of us have been trying to control this bowl of buttered spaghetti with all the effectiveness of a tweezers for decades. Over and over again, seasoned and experienced collectors have given up trying to help on forums as those posting are often like forum Member: Kloss... rude, obnoxious, confrontational, unable to be corrected, insulting, unteachable, unhelpful and unbearable.  Most experienced collectors have formed small groups and talk amongst themselves. The good ones on the USMF are still here, they watch but, remain silent. And who can blame them?

 

Go to the SOS... the place for the best of the best is loaded with boatloads of fakes. It has spiraled out of control and I doubt it will ever get better. I have sold off most of my collection and am sitting on just a few nice pieces. Who knows, I may let those go and get back to enjoying life without helmets.

How are newer collectors supposed to get into the hobby if the more experienced ones are all in closed groups? Having more experienced collectors around and willing to have discussions publicly helps newer collectors learn and grow into the hobby. I understand why it's sometimes a pain in the butt, not everyone is willing to learn or change their stance which can be incredibly frustrating. However, I feel like closing off discussions from the greater community does more harm to the hobby than good.

 

That's just my thoughts on this topic, but I've always been of the opinion that the more knowledge sharing/discussions that happen openly the better for helping any given community thrive.

[john k]

Sometimes people are just plain hard to deal with.  

 

I think about my learning and interacting here.  I don't often comment, and If I do it's trying to be helpful given where I'm coming from / experience level, and I try to be clear about that. 

 

I recall once sharing an "early rear seam" M1 (meaning rear seam, stainless rim and bales, heat stamp around 900), and getting called out for talking non-sense because all rear seam helmets are "late".  

 

We should all communicate clearly and not be jerks to each other.  Unfortunately neither happens consistently all the time.  Add a lot of Money (valuable helmets), and a lot of ego (people with mixed knowledge, collecting expensive things) and it just gets worse.  The helmet forum brings all of this.  That and helmets are cool, we all like helmets...

 

 

[dmar836]

You have to use terms like "extant examples" and disagree with other's comments with passive aggressive digs like, "...the more experienced and serious collector would notice ..." etc. You know, set yourself as an expert few want to tangle with. At SOS, wear sweaters and look over your reading glasses when subjectively authenticating an item. It works because it closes down conversation pretty well.

I will say that the newer generations appear to have a different communication style and appear to expect "service" to their questions without doing very much research on their own. A kind of "Don't low ball me, I know what I've got!" mentality.

Just my observation.

Dave

[Fiziwater]

I have my niches, but helmets aren't one of them. Along with the well deserved ridicule, pointing out some of the features which scream "fake" could make this thread a lot more instructive, although probably very long.

[Bugme]

Before this forum was created in 2007, there were only two well populated forums in which we could discuss helmets. There was the MCF(Military Collectors Forum which is now defunct) and the WAF(Whermacht Awards Forum). Both were absolutely horrible places to be a collector with only limited knowledge. And it was much, much worse among helmet collectors. They were like sharks in bloody water and many collectors just gave up on forums.

 

This forum was created by good people who were on both those forums. Several of these really good guys have since passed away but, the goal was to have a safe and fun place to post.  Sadly, many of the attitudes of those other two forums came here and continued the same rude and obnoxious attacks. It is now 15 years later and the guys with 20, 25, 30, 50 years experience have said enough is enough. Some others have passed and other have sold their collections and the few that are left have closed ranks with their friends and will no longer post here or on any other forum. I am sorry for all of you who don't like that and I agree, it does not seem fair but, remember this: many of those who are now criticizing those with the experience who left...  are the very same people who criticized and attacked them back then. Now they want the voice of experience to return. Sorry, that boat left the harbor.

 

One last thing to think on: forums have had their day. Most everything is on social media now. All sense of integrity are now lost in those places. And places like this will slowly fade away. Is that harsh? Yes, but it is also reality.

[phantomfixer]

"One last thing to think on: forums have had their day. Most everything is on social media now. All sense of integrity are now lost in those places. And places like this will slowly fade away. Is that harsh? Yes, but it is also reality."

 

I hope not...social media posts are fleeting, posts are often covered up by new posts and any information gained, is lost in a day....

Forums, and the USMF specifically is and has been a great source for learning, and enjoying this hobby.....

[ispy]

One last thing to think on: forums have had their day. Most everything is on social media now. All sense of integrity are now lost in those places. And places like this will slowly fade away. Is that harsh? Yes, but it is also reality.

 

I kind of see it a little differently. They can stay on social media as most who actually 'think' knows what goes on in there and you're right it's just not a safe place to be unless you have a bigger chest to beat! And it's a nightmare to navigate!

Hopefully Elon will turn social media on it's head.

Whereas the everlasting proven forums like this one are here to stay. But obviously you'd know more than me, I'm just saying from outsiders and some time posters opinion.

And as I'm also an established member of a few other forums it seems they're only as good as there moderators......or not.

Wherever there's something to be collected & treasured there's always going to be forums.

[Blacksmith]

Really good points all, and I especially appreciate the candor Scott.  It’s refreshing to see someone be legit on the state of affairs - instead of the typical “everything is fine” mantra.  
 

Everything is indeed not fine, and denying there is a problem has exacerbated the problem itself.

 

However, I can’t blame the platform.  I’ve never done Social Media, have never had a FB account (gasp!), and figure if email, text, and phone can’t do it, oh well.  That said, there has been fraudsters, shills, con men, etc, since the ancient markets and bazaars.

 

It’s not era, it’s not venue, it is definitely people.  It is people behaving badly, while other people do little or nothing to stop it.  
 

I don’t have all the answers, but I’ll make a nod to Gandhi, and say that we each have a chance to “be the change we want to see in the world”.  That starts with accountability, aimed at the factors that are most negatively affecting the hobby.  I think two of those are the proliferation of fakes, and high prices being a barrier to entry for many beginning collectors.

 

All of us need to be more conscious (and conscientious) of the fact that treating militaria as commodities is a root-cause to both major issues.  
 

So much of the conversation today is about money, and less about the people we are supposedly honoring through our collecting.  We don’t equally celebrate common items to field soldiers and more rare items to super-commandos.  These are all artifacts of service and sacrifice - why the difference?  Personally, I can’t stand the term “Holy Grail item”, especially when it turns out to be a fake.  

 

So, what do I propose, Scott?  Effective today, I am not going to respond to ANY more “what’s it worth” topics with a dollar amount.  If I forget, or have a weak moment, I welcome you all to call me out on it.  The more we act like a price guide, the more we encourage monetizing these items, which directly caters to fakers, high prices, and us forgetting why we’re reportedly here.
 

While I don’t own nor manage the forum, there are some changes I would make if I did.  
 

@Bugme, you mentioned in the medic helmet topic that we need to police our own - what thoughts do you have on how we do that?

 

 

[Bugme]

21 minutes ago, Blacksmith said:

 

@Bugme, you mentioned in the medic helmet topic that we need to police our own - what thoughts do you have on how we do that?

 

 

 

We do exactly what we did in that thread. We call out the fakes, the fakers and the ones who propagate selling of fakes. More importantly,  our friends cannot get a pass when they do anything questionable... that's the tough one for most of us.

[Nickman983]

Scott, I appreciate the discussion on this.

 

I can understand why some experienced collectors have chosen to take a step back from forums like this. I can't say I blame them but it's still disappointing to lose them from a stewardship aspect.

 

I agree with your sentiment on things moving towards social media though I sincerely hope that it does not continue. I think places like facebook are great for groups that are organizing events or having casual discussions but for things like collecting, where preserving knowledge and resources is vital, I can't help but feel like social media pages are too fleeting to be of much use outside of fulfilling a desire for likes. I will admit I haven't used facebook in about a decade so it might have improved but I can't recall it being particularly easy to search through old posts like you can on a forum.

[Blacksmith]

2 hours ago, Bugme said:

 

We do exactly what we did in that thread. We call out the fakes, the fakers and the ones who propagate selling of fakes. More importantly,  our friends cannot get a pass when they do anything questionable... that's the tough one for most of us.

I completely agree with you.

 

Do you think this applies no matter where fakes are sold?

[MAW]

mdennis is a seller of known fake groups.  Look up his ID on this forum.

 

Do not buy from him; do not trust him. Never. Never. Never.

[Bugme]

50 minutes ago, Blacksmith said:

I completely agree with you.

 

Do you think this applies no matter where fakes are sold?

Absolutely