dmar836 Posted October 19, 2022 Share #26 Posted October 19, 2022 Which one of those pics is of the one you are selling? Bugme already said that proving such a helmet existed isn't the problem. The issue of you claiming/proving yours is one of them is. There is wise council on this forum. I hope you do the right thing. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted October 19, 2022 Share #27 Posted October 19, 2022 These are nice original war time photos you provide, but your helmet is not original. It was made to look like the medic helmet in the photos you are showing. The paint on your metal shell, the corking, and the cloth chinstraps are all very obvious signs of artificial aging. The liner looks to have an original 63rd infantry unit marking, but together it is a reproduction. I suggest looking at your helmet and comparing it to the helmets in this book: Helmets of the ETO: A Historical and Technical Guide. You will see how an original medic helmet should look and why the one you have is artificially aged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigschuss Posted October 19, 2022 Share #28 Posted October 19, 2022 Probably a decent liner. The helmet itself is a one-look fake. Love the story though...it's always the same. "Found at an estate sale...or flea market...or in a barn...and sold by a little old lady who didn't know what it was...for only a few dollars." There's never any provenance. They just keep self replicating out of the woodwork. It's a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloss Posted October 19, 2022 Share #29 Posted October 19, 2022 Provenance flea market in city Metz in France. Slowly we ridiculous here, I see only opinion, no evidence. goodbye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1a2u2 Posted October 19, 2022 Share #30 Posted October 19, 2022 I was just curious what was wrong about the chinstrap hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john k Posted October 19, 2022 Share #31 Posted October 19, 2022 13 minutes ago, m1a2u2 said: I was just curious what was wrong about the chinstrap hardware. Carefully examine the details of the shape of the female buckle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 19, 2022 Share #32 Posted October 19, 2022 14 hours ago, kloss said: Provenance flea market in city Metz in France. Slowly we ridiculous here, I see only opinion, no evidence. goodbye 1) A flea market is not provenance. Period! 2) No one is ridiculous here. I was trying to be nice but, let me speak clearly now: Your denial of the proof which has been given by many experienced collectors here on the forum is what is ridiculous. Clearly, you made a mistake when you acquired it. I am sorry that you got burned by a faker. But, you will not convince everyone here to put their stamp of approval on this helmet nor that they are somehow wrong when in fact, they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigschuss Posted October 19, 2022 Share #33 Posted October 19, 2022 47 minutes ago, kloss said: Provenance flea market in city Metz in France. Slowly we ridiculous here, I see only opinion, no evidence. goodbye That's not what provenance is. That's where you supposedly bought it. Big difference. Provenance is an unbroken chain of custody...which this helmet does not have. Many members have pointed out what is wrong with this helmet. You fail to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmar836 Posted October 19, 2022 Share #34 Posted October 19, 2022 In such cases the need for evidence is on you, Michael, to show evidence of authenticity, not on everyone else to prove it's lack of authenticity. You might have benn better off not admitting this was your sale. This is going from bad to worse. Can you comment on the other medic helmet shown? The type of artificial aging of not only the shell but the straps is uncanny. Without going overboard, I do think the wise would take a look at this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloss Posted October 19, 2022 Share #35 Posted October 19, 2022 I have done my best, i supplied pictures, tells find story and location, everything is harmonious. her another helmet with the same simple red cross https://www.ebay.com/itm/115557739984?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Db8d21376ad5b49988c8b6831a4b9a26a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D354325602038%26itm%3D115557739984%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad0362c79-4ff0-11ed-a8b0-6a5585311c99|parentrq%3Af20a90891830a9f56781b9a7fffbcb90|iid%3A1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake36bravo Posted October 19, 2022 Share #36 Posted October 19, 2022 Something we've all seen before if you collect long enough, defensiveness when confronted with a fake item, refusal to take the item in question down if its for sale when its clearly demonstrated to be an aged and faked item, and someone profiting off the lack of knowledge from others. The end goal is profit driven otherwise someone with integrity would pull it so as not to loose their reputation or take advantage of another collector. Winning bidder will have a hard learned lesson ahead of them although, collect long enough you'll see a collection that is nearly completely filled faked items the owner believes to be 100% real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloss Posted October 19, 2022 Share #37 Posted October 19, 2022 it would not be the first time that an authentic object is badmouthed, sadly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake36bravo Posted October 19, 2022 Share #38 Posted October 19, 2022 48 minutes ago, kloss said: I have done my best, i supplied pictures, tells find story and location, everything is harmonious. her another helmet with the same simple red cross You do supply plenty of very detailed images of the helmet on your auction. To your credit. That is true as well as providing where you found it from however that in itself does not make your helmet an original combat medic's helmet. Showing a link to a different helmet does not make the one you are selling a real one. Posting wartime pictures of original examples as worn does not make the helmet you are selling real. As has been pointed out you bought a re-strapped, artificially aged helmet at a flea market with a story someone sold you to get you to buy it and are now turning it over. Whoever faked the one you are running at auction also faked the last one that was sold. Call it their signature. Repainted, artificially aged, re-strapped with aged reproduction chin straps, and with added provenance to someone real easily looked up on Fold3 or other sources. It's okay to learn something new. You have some seasoned collectors telling you all you need to know. Whether you choose to listen is entirely up to you. You know it will sell even if its a fake. It's what people who sell these items count on. Its up to you to do the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdk0911 Posted October 19, 2022 Share #39 Posted October 19, 2022 kloss, Why don't you put this helmet up on other military websites and see what the opinions are - Wehrmacht Awards - German Helmet Walhalla and there are others. SORRY to say but the helmet has been messed with - The liner has a good chance of being original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th.MG.BN Posted October 19, 2022 Share #40 Posted October 19, 2022 Kloss, I haven't heard any member take your side on the helmet. Time to face the facts on what all the members have shared on what they think about your helmet. No sense on beating a dead horse! Regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted October 20, 2022 Share #41 Posted October 20, 2022 9 hours ago, kloss said: I have done my best, i supplied pictures, tells find story and location, everything is harmonious. her another helmet with the same simple red cross https://www.ebay.com/itm/115557739984?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Db8d21376ad5b49988c8b6831a4b9a26a%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D354325602038%26itm%3D115557739984%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad0362c79-4ff0-11ed-a8b0-6a5585311c99|parentrq%3Af20a90891830a9f56781b9a7fffbcb90|iid%3A1 Yes and I just looked at what he’s selling and this untouched beauty turned up For only $2200 ! Give up the ghost mate, pull the listing and don’t become one of those sellers. Believe me Karma always catches up with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 20, 2022 Share #42 Posted October 20, 2022 12 hours ago, kloss said: it would not be the first time that an authentic object is badmouthed, sadly True, legitimate and authentic helmets have been badmouthed in the past and that is truly sad. However, your helmet is not among those. Your helmet is fake... it will always be a fake... and it will always be badmouthed(your words not mine). Many extremely experienced collectors have made some really good points and given good advice. At the end of the day it comes down to this: The liner is good, the steel helmet markings are fake. And you have to decide if it is morally right to sell this to someone who does not know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 20, 2022 Share #43 Posted October 20, 2022 4 hours ago, ArchangelDM said: Yes and I just looked at what he’s selling and this untouched beauty turned up For only $2200 ! Give up the ghost mate, pull the listing and don’t become one of those sellers. Believe me Karma always catches up with you. Likely the same artefaker. You can see it has been coated with the same type theatrical age coating that we saw used by such guys as Lawdog Steel Helmets, easy_green and Sutherland Brothers back in the day when they were doing this to reenactors and repop helmets... AND, this is likely the same coating used on the helmet which began this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manayunkman Posted October 20, 2022 Share #44 Posted October 20, 2022 The OP might have their own expert who claims it’s legit. In that case they should offer a money back guarantee like all the other dealers who sell fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMC_COLLECTOR Posted October 20, 2022 Share #45 Posted October 20, 2022 That sounds like the fairest and best way for this situation to be handled. 12 minutes ago, manayunkman said: The OP might have their own expert who claims it’s legit. In that case they should offer a money back guarantee like all the other dealers who sell fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloss Posted October 20, 2022 Share #46 Posted October 20, 2022 I have asked noone here for opinions, a friend drew my attention to the topic her, i am frightened this is like modern witch hunt here. One shouts something, the others repeat without real reasons it and it increases so far you now see white mice everywhere. now i am really out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 20, 2022 Share #47 Posted October 20, 2022 55 minutes ago, kloss said: I have asked noone here for opinions, a friend drew my attention to the topic her, i am frightened this is like modern witch hunt here. One shouts something, the others repeat without real reasons it and it increases so far you now see white mice everywhere. now i am really out Ignorance is Bliss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manayunkman Posted October 20, 2022 Share #48 Posted October 20, 2022 1 hour ago, kloss said: I have asked noone here for opinions, a friend drew my attention to the topic her, i am frightened this is like modern witch hunt here. One shouts something, the others repeat without real reasons it and it increases so far you now see white mice everywhere. now i am really out How familiar are you with helmets and the helmet trade? If you are familiar then you would understand what is going on here. The easiest way to prove this helmet wrong is to discredit the straps and buckle which I personally can not discern. Once the straps are proven wrong we know it’s been messed with and the idea that this is a pure helmet is over. As far as provenance is concerned we don’t know where it starts other than at a flea market and now Kloss which proves nothing and has no bearing on whether the helmet is real or not. Photos are not provenance unless it’s a photo of the actual item being worn in WW2. The finish on this helmet is nothing like any finish on any US helmet I've found from a vet. But it is a finish I’ve seen on fakes. You should be more confident in your sale and at least offer a money back guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 20, 2022 Share #49 Posted October 20, 2022 3 hours ago, manayunkman said: The OP might have their own expert who claims it’s legit. In that case they should offer a money back guarantee like all the other dealers who sell fakes. Of course, if the buyer uses PayPal, they have a money-back, buyer protection plan built into their purchase. What shocks me, is how high the bidding has gone. Lots of unknowledgable bidding going on. I guess there are some people who want it to be legit so badly that they toss wisdom and caution to the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manayunkman Posted October 20, 2022 Share #50 Posted October 20, 2022 14 minutes ago, Bugme said: Of course, if the buyer uses PayPal, they have a money-back, buyer protection plan built into their purchase. What shocks me, is how high the bidding has gone. Lots of unknowledgable bidding going on. I guess there are some people who want it to be legit so badly that they toss wisdom and caution to the wind. Ebay offers buyer protection too but who wants to rely on that as it usually boils down to an opinion. If you are not familiar with what originals look like and don’t care to find out you are destined to make expensive mistakes. Im trying to figure out why the white border on the red cross is pink and purposely done so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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