Could this be a 325th GIR helmet?

[Theriddler]

Hi Guys

Just added this WW2 M1 set to my collection. I’ll be honest I probably would have passed it by if it wasn’t for the fact that it had a Seaman Paper Company liner, a liner I didn’t have in my collection.

I didn’t really pay much attention to the shell until it arrived. It’s a front seam, stainless steel rimmed McCord heat lot number 637B that has been converted from a fixed loop to a swivel loop. The outside has had a repaint sometime in its service, now this is were it gets interesting. 
On closer inspection wear to the paint has started to reveal what I believe to be a 325th GIR insignia on either side. What do you think guys? Have I without realising it purchased an interesting helmet or is it something else?
The sweatband is Korean era and the liner chinstrap and helmet chinstrap aren’t original.

[Theriddler]

Here’s some more pictures.

 

[Theriddler]

A few more 

[Theriddler]

A sharper picture of the insignia

 

[Burning Hazard]

The OD3 chinstraps on the shell are reproductions.

 

The liner does not match the inner shell wear so definitely added later.

 

Are you able to tell whether the white paint is underneath the OD 3 paint? Or was the white paint smudged off? I'm very weary as airborne helmets are the most faked in the militaria world.

 

Pat

[Theriddler]

Hi

Thanks for your help. 
l’ve examined the paint around the insignia with various strengths of magnifier and also subjected the shell to “Blacklight” and it’s definitely underneath the top layer of paint, the “Blacklight” also didn’t reveal any inconsistencies in the paintwork.

I was thinking the same thing about the liner because if I’m correct it should have been an para liner and yes both chinstraps are reproductions.

 

The seller didn’t advertise it as an Airborne helmet and was upfront about the chinstraps.

 

Initially I was very sceptical cause as you say there are so many M1 helmets with reproduction Airborne insignia on the market but I cautiously optimistic about this one.

[Theriddler]

Apologies for the lack of sharpness in the photo but hopefully this will give you a better closeup of the area around the insignia.

The second picture is the helmet under “Blacklight”

 

 

[elh1311]

If it's advertised as a 325th helmet from WWII, it would not be a paratrooper helmet. The 325th was a Glider Infantry Regiment (GIR) during the war and, like all GIRs, was issued standard infantry equipment to include helmets. The sweatband is a post-Korea sweatband, for whatever that's worth. 

[TheGoose]

Not only are the chinstraps reproduction, but the swivel loops themselves seem to be homemade.

[Nickman983]

27 minutes ago, TheGoose said:

Not only are the chinstraps reproduction, but the swivel loops themselves seem to be homemade.

Now that you mentioned it the loops themselves do look a bit weird from the pictures provided.

 

I'm wondering if it might be a reenactor special. The markings look like they're under the overpaint but they're very clearly visible through the overpaint so it would strike me as odd that the seller wouldn't mention them in some way. I'm curious to see what ends up happening with this one.

[Theriddler]

Hi guys

Thanks for your replies.

The seller never advertised it as belonging to any Airborne Unit and was upfront in relation to the repo chinstraps and 50’s sweatband. The swivel loops look a lot worse in the pictures than they do in the flesh, I’ve compared them to other helmets in my collection and I’m satisfied they’re legit.

[Brian Dentino]

I will chuck in my $.02 worth on this helmet.  From all the years of study and research on the 325th in WWII I do not recall ever seeing a pic of a 325th man wearing a painted helmet.  Covered with sheet/other material in Bulge yes, but painted no.  My guess would be IF this is a legit 325th painted helmet it dates from the 50's sometime when they would have been a para Regiment.  If it is indeed from that time frame (late 1940's - 1960) I would send a PM to Mike aka sgtdorango here.  He seems to have a good handle on these painted lids from that time frame.

[Theriddler]

Brian

That’s an interesting point and thanks for the suggestion to contact Mike. I’ve also searched the internet for wartime photos of M1 helmets with the 325th Insignia and came up empty handed. The idea came into my head after coming across picture of a 1st Lt M1 with the 325th Insignia recovered from Holland on page 274 of Pieter Oosterman excellent book, The M-1 Helmet of the World War II GI. 
 

Also I’ve found these pics, the second one is on the cover of a book relating to 325th activity in Holland during WW2.

 

 

[Burning Hazard]

The SB loops are original, they’re just mangled, possibly because someone added or removed the 1958-VN metal chinstrap clips. This makes me believe this helmet is post-war used as well.

 

Pat

[Brian Dentino]

2 hours ago, Theriddler said:

Brian

That’s an interesting point and thanks for the suggestion to contact Mike. I’ve also searched the internet for wartime photos of M1 helmets with the 325th Insignia and came up empty handed. The idea came into my head after coming across picture of a 1st Lt M1 with the 325th Insignia recovered from Holland on page 274 of Pieter Oosterman excellent book, The M-1 Helmet of the World War II GI. 
 

Also I’ve found these pics, the second one is on the cover of a book relating to 325th activity in Holland during WW2.

 

 

I am certainly not saying that this didn't happen, just that I personally have never seen a wartime photo showing a painted lid is all.  Went to reunions and had friends from the 325th and was able to view many unpublished private photos.  Again, ANYTHING as we know in collecting is possible just threw out that I had never seen a painted lid in a WWII photo.  I have seen them used post 1948-ish with the Cross of Loraine just never earlier that I can recall as proof.

[Linedoggie]

On 9/12/2022 at 1:44 PM, Theriddler said:

Hi Guys

Just added this WW2 M1 set to my collection. I’ll be honest I probably would have passed it by if it wasn’t for the fact that it had a Seaman Paper Company liner, a liner I didn’t have in my collection.

I didn’t really pay much attention to the shell until it arrived. It’s a front seam, stainless steel rimmed McCord heat lot number 637B that has been converted from a fixed loop to a swivel loop. The outside has had a repaint sometime in its service, now this is were it gets interesting. 
On closer inspection wear to the paint has started to reveal what I believe to be a 325th GIR insignia on either side. What do you think guys? Have I without realising it purchased an interesting helmet or is it something else?
The sweatband is Korean era and the liner chinstrap and helmet chinstrap aren’t original.

delete

[Burning Hazard]

I'm not a fan of the 325th on Amoskeag auctions poste above.

 

https://live.amoskeagauction.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/73/lot/41495

 

The shell is an M1C - as far as I know there is still no proof of M1C's being used in WWII ETO, highly doubt it would of been issued to glider regiment as they were equipped with standard infantry helmets. Westinghouse liner looks like it may have reproduction A-Yokes, those cast buckles look off.

 

Also the painted insignia does not look good to me.

 

Pat

[BEAR]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:32 PM, Burning Hazard said:

The OD3 chinstraps on the shell are reproductions.

Not being knowledgeable about OD3 chinstraps what features signify that these chinstraps are reproductions. Weave, sewing, hardware??

Comparing the pictures to my FS, FB with OD3 chinstrap, I don't see any difference.

 

BEAR

[Burning Hazard]

1 hour ago, BEAR said:

Not being knowledgeable about OD3 chinstraps what features signify that these chinstraps are reproductions. Weave, sewing, hardware??

Comparing the pictures to my FS, FB with OD3 chinstrap, I don't see any difference.

 

BEAR

 

The dead giveaway is how long the hook side is compared to originals (see below comparison).

 

Secondary signs are incorrect OD stitching and the general "fuzzy" chinstrap appearance.

 

Pat

[Theriddler]

8 hours ago, BEAR said:

Not being knowledgeable about OD3 chinstraps what features signify that these chinstraps are reproductions. Weave, sewing, hardware??

Comparing the pictures to my FS, FB with OD3 chinstrap, I don't see any difference.

 

BEAR

To further emphasis the differences pointed out in Burning Hazard’s post I’ve attached photos of genuine chinstraps along side reproductions for your comparison.

Top are the reproduction straps below the real thing. Hope this helps also note the finish on the buckle and the hook.

 

[Theriddler]

Here’s some close up’s of the hardware. Genuine parts on the right.

 

[BEAR]

Thank you for your replies. 

"Fuzzy chinstrap appearance"......is that in reference to the reproduction or the original? I did notice on Theriddler's side by side on the hook portion of the chinstrap, a definite length difference.

Thanks again.

 

BEAR

[john k]

1 hour ago, BEAR said:

Thank you for your replies. 

"Fuzzy chinstrap appearance"......is that in reference to the reproduction or the original? I did notice on Theriddler's side by side on the hook portion of the chinstrap, a definite length difference.

Thanks again.

 

BEAR

The repros look fuzzy, originals don’t.  It’s more apparent in hand.  

[Irishcollector]

Found this photo online taken in Germany late war to wars end period. Note the painted cross on the helmet and the folding stock carbine

[ken88]

Please consider this a side note but I've always been intrigued by this picture which clearly shows a paratrooper liner being worn by a gliderborne soldier. 

 

This probably is an exception, maybe a paratrooper who was transfered but still a very interesting picture, aside from what needs to be authenticated in this thread, please don't see it as a claim whatsoever. Just shows it's not impossible for a glider-rider to somehow have worn gear mainly issued to paratroops.