M1861 Bridesburg Fenian Musket Dated 1863

[Musket Man]

I'm not sure if this fits here, but really didn't see a category for it.

Right after the Civil War in 1865 The Irish Brotherhood and the Fenians in New York hatched a plan to invade Canada to force Britain from Ireland. Alfred Jenks from Bridesburg Pennsylvania, the largest supplier of Civil War weapons sold 7000+ M1861's to the Fenians. The caveat was though most of them were surplus from the war and a huge number were built with condemned parts such as barrel bands, nose/butt caps  and in some cases locks. The first raid for the most part was a failure but "Canada" realized how bad their defenses were. The U.S. government confiscated their weapons and let them sit and rust in an armory. The government finally gave the weapons back but they were all rusted to almost disrepair. The Fenians then took all the muskets apart, mixed up all the parts and assembled 5020 with all the mixed up and least rusted and don't forget, condemned parts. For the second raid, planned for 1870, the Fenians knew they needed breechloading rifles and after several attempts settled on the Needham system. They rented a top secret location (at the time) and converted the 5020 to the Needham breech system and conducted another raid that also failed. There was death on both sides. It was kind of a big deal that didn't get much press outside of Canada, England and Ireland.  This musket in my collection is a M1861 Bridesburg dated 1863 that was purchased by the Fenians in 1865. It was the 448th one converted in 1868 to the Needham system in their top secret location. Have now learned the location was a railroad engine manufacturer that built "Monster" class engines. It then became a musket armory building the U.S. Trenton muskets for the Civil War. After the war, was no longer needed but all the unmaking equipment was still there so the Fenians rented space to make the conversion. The building still stand today and is a restaurant. This musket still has condemned, rusty parts that made up the Fenian weapons. It also has the "IN" stamp on the side standing for Fenian nation.

 

[Musket Man]

Some more:
 

Can see all the "C" condemned and still rusty parts. Not the normal erosion seen in these.

 

 

[Musket Man]

Forgot one, the restaurant that now occupies the building where these conversions were made. Sits on the Delaware River in Trenton New Jersey.

 

 

[mikie]

Great post.  I've read a little about all this before but not much.  Thanks for filling in lots of new (to me) details.

 

Mikie 

[sundance]

Very nice musket and an interesting story. 

[M24 Chaffee]

Cool musket! I didn’t know about this interesting history. I also own an 1863 Bridesburg musket used in the Civil War and I used to live near where the Bridesburg factory was. 
 

Frank

[Musket Man]

2 minutes ago, M24 Chaffee said:

Cool musket! I didn’t know about this interesting history. I also own an 1863 Bridesburg musket used in the Civil War and I used to live near where the Bridesburg factory was. 
 

Frank

It is a fascinating event. Actually happened twice, once in 1866 and again in 1870. The first one used production Bridesburgs like yours then the converted ones in the second raid.  I am trying to find a muzzle loading Bridesburg with the IN on the flat to have one from the first raid. 

[gunbb]

So the "IN" is on the side of the wood stock , on the opposite side of the side plate ? I just want to make sure because I have on of those Needam Conversions along with a medal from the "Fenian War" 

[gunbb]

Well mine has no "IN" mark. Just wondering, were these Needam Conversions ever re-pro'd ? 

[Musket Man]

9 hours ago, gunbb said:

So the "IN" is on the side of the wood stock , on the opposite side of the side plate ? I just want to make sure because I have on of those Needam Conversions along with a medal from the "Fenian War" 

Yes, it is on the flat opoosite the lock between the two screws. Another area to check is under the middle barrel band. depending if you have a M1863 it will have a screw to loosen, just slide it forward and see if there is a v-cut in the stock. If it is a M1861 just push in the push tab and slide it forward. If it has the cut, it is definitely Fenian. I have done a huge amount of research on the Fenians and their weapons in the 1866 and 1870/71 raids into Canada. Most every site out there will tell you all the Needhams were for the Fenians. I have found several examples that were not, but most were. The "IN" comes from the  7000+ weapons bought beofre the first raid. The vast majority of those were Bridesburgs because Alfreed Jenks(the Maker) had huge a huge amount left over, as well as parts(mostly condemned) of M1861's and m1863's after the Civil War. There are a few other makes sprinkled around and still available. The Fenians stamped all these musket with an IN for the most part and some were stamped with a shamrock. It is thought one faction of the Fenians had the IN and the other had the shamrock. When that raid failed the US governemtn confiscated most of the arms and while they were siting at some fort somewhere they all became very rusty. The Fenians were able to get them back and out of the 7000+ bought they were able to save a little over 5000. But all the parts were now mixed and matched. It was those batch they decided to convert 5020 over to the Needham system . Oh, one other thing, after the first raid the Fenians decided to mask a lot of the conversions by cutting the stock under the middle band so they could be packed in much smaller cases as not to be so obvious, that is the reason for the v-cut undert the middle band. So here it is what I think. if it has the "IN" it was part of the initial purchase for the first raid and later converted. If it has the IN it is a Fenian weapon, If it has the cut under the band it is a Fenain weapon. If it has neither, it probably is, but can't be proven without some other kind of provenance. if it has neither, it still has value as common lore states they were all Fenian. But my research tells me otherwise. One with the cut and In just sold on Joe Salter for $1495. if it has neither they can be had for anywhere between $900 and $1200. 

[Musket Man]

9 hours ago, gunbb said:

Well mine has no "IN" mark. Just wondering, were these Needam Conversions ever re-pro'd ? 

Sorry, I just collect these, I don't shoot them. so what do you mean by re-pro'd? 

[gunbb]

I was wondering if they had made modern copies of this rifle with the Needham Conversion. Mine looks really good. I assumed when I bought it, it had been "cleaned". Now I don't know because the parts look too good.  

[Musket Man]

12 minutes ago, gunbb said:

I was wondering if they had made modern copies of this rifle with the Needham Conversion. Mine looks really good. I assumed when I bought it, it had been "cleaned". Now I don't know because the parts look too good.  

When the Needham conversions were done, not all of them went on the raids. A lot were left behind in storage in Trenton to be used if needed. So even if they were used it ws just for one raid that didn't last very long. After that last raid, all the guns were seized and sold at auction. A big dealer, the name escapes me at the moment bought most of them  and sold them commercially. At the time, they were very hard to get ammo for. That was one of the problems the Fenians had was finding ammunition. Lemme know if you check yours to see if it has the cut stock under the middle barrel band. As far as I know, no copies were made. The Needham system didn't work as good as the Alin system on the Springfields. 

[gunbb]

Here is mine . It's a Springfield . Like I said, I think it was "Cleaned" of that "dirty old rusty stuff " . Otherwise, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it, if I could find the ammo . Do they make brass for it?  Most of the ones I have seen in collections and for sale , were missing the breech block. I paid $500 for mine because it had the block and was therefore complete . You see so little of this stuff out here where I live. 

[Musket Man]

40 minutes ago, gunbb said:

Here is mine . It's a Springfield . Like I said, I think it was "Cleaned" of that "dirty old rusty stuff " . Otherwise, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it, if I could find the ammo . Do they make brass for it?  Most of the ones I have seen in collections and for sale , were missing the breech block. I paid $500 for mine because it had the block and was therefore complete . You see so little of this stuff out here where I live. 

 

I believe this one was in Fenian hands. You are right it has been cleaned. That is kind of a no-no in the collecting world. But it is what it is. Still a very cool gun. I'll tell you why I believe the Fenians had this one. Even though it doesn't have the IN or the cut stock it has the condemned parts. You normally wouldn't see a condemned part on a Springfield.  When the Fenians got all the rusty guns back, they dismantled all of them with all the various parts going into various bins.  All of these contract guns were suppossed to have interchangeable parts. But in the 1860's that was almost impossible. So while all the parts were close they weren't exact. The Fenians didn't want to take the time to label every part so they just threw everything in their respective bins. So I believe this was one of the ones they put together from all the parts bins they had and that would explain the C on the band. All the condemned parts came from Alfred Jenks who built the Bridesburg musket for the Civil War. He had a lot of condemned parts after th war and that is why the Fenians got the guns so cheap. So, undoubtablly, the band with a C on it was originally on a Bridesburg M1861. Very nice looking weapon. it displays well.  Is there a swell in the ramrod toward the tulip end and a matching swell in the stock?  That would help tell if this was a M1861 or M1863. You can't go by the hammer because most if not all the needhams used a M1863 hammer.  There should be a number on the inside part of the wedge of the hammer. There should be a matching numnber on the inside of the hammer. You may have to pull the lock off to see it. Mine is number 448. All of the Needhams were stamped with a serial number. You may not have known that, few do. Are there any cartouches on the stock flat behind or around the rear lock screw?The pic kind of cuts off the flat right there. Just trying to see if this was a government accepted gun for the Civil War. 1861 is kind of a rare lock plate. You did good with this one. 

[gunbb]

I'd have to take the hammer off to see the whole number but I can see a "0" . No stock cartouches anywhere. The guy did "Reel Gud" buffing the crap out of the stock . Here's something I just noticed on the tip of the ramrod. Somewhere I have an enlistment paper for some guy named Murphy along with his citizenship paper. Where it is, I am at a loss . Too much crap after 70 years of collecting .  

[Musket Man]

15 minutes ago, gunbb said:

I'd have to take the hammer off to see the whole number but I can see a "0" . No stock cartouches anywhere. The guy did "Reel Gud" buffing the crap out of the stock . Here's something I just noticed on the tip of the ramrod. Somewhere I have an enlistment paper for some guy named Murphy along with his citizenship paper. Where it is, I am at a loss . Too much crap after 70 years of collecting .  

 

That is a reproduction ramrod. It's not even close. Since this is a rifle it should have a cupped end, not concave, Plus it's not even shaped right.  This is the ramrod to my M1863  Bridesburg  Needham. They use the standard M1863 ramrod that does not have the swell

[Musket Man]

29 minutes ago, gunbb said:

I'd have to take the hammer off to see the whole number but I can see a "0" . No stock cartouches anywhere. The guy did "Reel Gud" buffing the crap out of the stock . Here's something I just noticed on the tip of the ramrod. Somewhere I have an enlistment paper for some guy named Murphy along with his citizenship paper. Where it is, I am at a loss . Too much crap after 70 years of collecting .  

if you have a M1861 the ramrod and stock will have a swell like this....... this is on a m1861 William Mason musket but all the 1861's are basically the same no matter who makes them. You can see how the stock is swelled to fit the swell in the ramrod. That was done to help keep the ramrod in place during recoils or while marching. But they changed it for the M1863 to make it cheaper and cheaper always wins out over better.

[gunbb]

I have a ramrod but it hasn't been cleaned , so I'll just leave this one as is. Since I'm half Irish, the info is welcome. 

[Musket Man]

On 9/19/2022 at 2:25 PM, gunbb said:

I have a ramrod but it hasn't been cleaned , so I'll just leave this one as is. Since I'm half Irish, the info is welcome. 

Let me ask, can you look under the rear middle band and see if see a cut? Could be straight or v-shaped. i just bought a Springfield Needham and it has the Fenian cut under the rear band. First time I had ever seen that. I know you looked under the middle band but curious about the rear band.

[Musket Man]

It appears you have a very early model of the Needham. If you look at the pin holding the wedge on yours is flush. it might be interesting to get to the number on the wedge and the hammer.  

[gunbb]

On 9/25/2022 at 8:02 AM, Musket Man said:

Let me ask, can you look under the rear middle band and see if see a cut? Could be straight or v-shaped. i just bought a Springfield Needham and it has the Fenian cut under the rear band. First time I had ever seen that. I know you looked under the middle band but curious about the rear band.

The one closest to the hammer ?

[gunbb]

On 9/25/2022 at 3:23 PM, Musket Man said:

It appears you have a very early model of the Needham. If you look at the pin holding the wedge on yours is flush. it might be interesting to get to the number on the wedge and the hammer.  

As I remember there's a mainspring clamp you need to take it apart. I don't have one.

[Musket Man]

58 minutes ago, gunbb said:

As I remember there's a mainspring clamp you need to take it apart. I don't have one.

The hammer can be removed by just unscrewing the one screw for the hammer. The number is on the inside of the hammer. The wedge of the hammer (nose) should have the same number on the inside of it ,if it is the original wedge(nose). There is no reaason to remove the mainspring to get to the number

[Musket Man]

On 9/27/2022 at 2:49 PM, gunbb said:

As I remember there's a mainspring clamp you need to take it apart. I don't have one.

Good evening sir, were you ever able to find the hammer wedge number on your Needham?