Authentic or reproduction?

[cannon jockey]

Any opinions on the buckle shown below? It seems to be a cast M1886 buckle?  However, it has a heavy wire loop attached that I don't think is normally part of the buckle. Maybe the rear flap is bent down so the wire is contained but that could be easily remedied and the wire could be converted to a usable "C" closure with a little trimming. The overall oxidation looks a bit fishy to me and the recessed background area doesn't look as uniformly pebbled like others I've seen.  There are no marks which I think is supposed to be normal

Anyway, I spotted this on eBay a day ago listed as an original. It only had one bidder at a price of like $68 which is way under what an original should sell for. I found only one brass company selling reproductions of this buckle online and they were asking $65 plus $10 shipping. I took a chance and won it for $74 with free shipping which is $1 less than what repro would have cost with shipping. Consequently, if it is fake I didn't get burned too badly.

Opinions?

[CAC1901]

From what I can see it looks OK. These were underdogs and never really very valuable for decades so I'm not sure whay someone would go to the trouble of aging a modren era one to wind up at the same place. I recall from having the replicas (for living historians, reenactors etc) that the tab on each side was brazed on, not cast in one piece like the arsenal made ones. Its been decades so I could be wrong there.  As far as the wire attachment thats they way they were used. One tab was folded over the brass wire loop to secure it and the wire  went into one fold of the belt. The other tab was the tongue - it hooked to the other brass loop in the other fold. On each siide of the buckle was a wire loop used to cinch the plate secure.

 

The 'C' catch had nothing to do with these plates except to the extent they replaced the plate system. The C wire was the buckle or fastener to the belt itself. It used sheet brass loops on each side and had brass belt ends with a c wire that gripped the belt. These belts came in right away with the Krag and the army ditched the H-plates.

[cannon jockey]

Thanks for the reply.  The only source book I have is just a  page of information in Joe Poyer's book on the Krag rifle and carbine.  I don't have the buckle yet for a close up examination.

 

Poyer called this type as used during the Spanish American war a type I or the Whittemore design (after some officer at the Watervliet arsenal) In his description he says that it was called the loose loop type in that it had no loop attached to it.   His explanation didn't make much sense to me but it's what made me think the wire loop shown in the eBay might be incorrect.  

I am aware of the use of the C closures but the Poyer book seemed to indicate that this buckle was hooked on C closures.    However, after thinking about it--since the C closures have much more space between the verticals in order to cover two thicknesses of each end of a woven belt, what you are saying makes more sense and the simple wire loop would be more practical for a buckle hook up.

 

Also, in looking at various shots of Spanish American war soldiers, I have yet to see any wearing a buckle with the exception of a couple of Philippine Constabulary soldiers.  Most have their belts simply fastened with a C closure.   However, I had been told that these buckles were used more for dress occasions.

 

I have ordered a copy of the Dorsey book "American military belts and Related Equipments" from Amazon which I'm hoping may have better pictures and possibly some dimensions to check.

 

Cheers

[CAC1901]

The one piece H plate was the last arsenal made version of the plate; adopted in 1886 They were used only on the 45/70 belts for foot troops. That same year the army dropped the plates for mounted troops and went to an open buckle and tongue system. The H plates were dropped in 1894-95 when the Krags and their mills belts with the C closure were adopted. The only use of these regular army 1886 H plates after then would be some state troops that used them in the Spanish American war period altho frankly few did. I've studied and collected that era for decades. After the war when a lot of the pre-1902 stuff was surplused. out these plates wound up attached to all sorts of loop and cartridge belts in catalogs, in movie and costume shops, etc., confusing people later to thinking thats what they were used on.  You'd be better off with Doug McChristians books, vasty more accurate. 

[cannon jockey]

Thanks again. for the information.  I'll check out Mr. McChristian's' books.

 

Cheers