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Is this medal naming correct? Post your engraving questions here!


Dave
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On 12/8/2022 at 8:03 PM, B24AT6 said:

Looking for opinions on this one, never have dipped my toe into the USMC pond, so not as familiar with what to look for as I would like to be.

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I've never seen this type of USMC  engraving on a a USN Type II medal, only Type I's . 

 

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Here's an early 2000's engraving example. This is up on eBay currently. He passed away in 2003, so I would not be surprised if this was something requested either before or after his death. Official government engraving; often called "trophy shop" but it's not. 

 

 

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Basic Rifleman
3 hours ago, Pete-o MSU said:

Not wwii period engraving 

What would the period be? Apparently this was a MIA 506th PIR soldier. Could these be the original medals that were sent to family following the war? 

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Not saying this is a fake.  Both medals look officially engraved.  However, the photos are not the best.  Seem a bit blurred.  I would only be suspicious, because it is a 506 group.  If I remember correctly, the large block lettering is very late war/post war done.  I have been collecting for over 35 years.  I always knew as KIA medals became more and more collected, and the values increased, the fakes would start showing up.  I would also concur with what Dave stated in an earlier post, some medals were reissued to other family members later.  I too have seen this on several occasions.

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On 12/18/2022 at 6:59 PM, Basic Rifleman said:

What would the period be? Apparently this was a MIA 506th PIR soldier. Could these be the original medals that were sent to family following the war? 


WWII hand engraved - Peele (lots of different engraving hands on wwii period)

WWII large machine engraved - Willett

WWII small machine engraved - Evans

WWII Pantograph engraved - Jones

Post WWII 46-47 script engraved - Hedge

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Basic Rifleman

   I don't often buy medals without airtight provenance, or what I consider to be a good amount of supporting paper documentation. This lot, as previously discussed in this thread, had neither of those. 

 

  This was one rare case where I took a chance.  Upon receiving the medals, I've taken a variety of photographs from different angles, and with better lighting than was provided from the auction house from which they were sold. I used a macro lens on my DSLR to capture every detail in the engravings, especially the tiny script on the DSM. I also studied this thread in its entirety before posting, and I don't personally see any of the red flags as addressed above with regard to style, technique or workmanship. I humbly and eagerly await your responses. 

 

 

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David Schwind put together a great reference book on the purple heart and engraved medals.  It is the quintessential reference book on this very subject!  He poured his heart and soul into it.  If you don't have this book, I would encourage you to get it.  He writes on page 508:

 

- Hand engraved medals in use from 1942 to 1947.

- Pantograph engraved with large lettering in use from 1944 and 1945.

- Pantograph engraved with small lettering in use from 1944 to 1946.

- Stamped, used only in 1945.

- Script hand engraved in use from 1947 to 1949.

 

Many thanks to Pete for posting the photos of good engravings!  

 

As to the engravings above, I will defer to other experts.  Over 30 years ago, I collected painted American helmets from WWII.  The fakes became so good, I decided to step away.  Pete showed some examples of some fakes earlier in this thread.  I find it to be very scarry, because on some, I can't tell the difference!

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Another USMC fake engraving that has popped up? Again at an Auction House on LiveAuctioneers.

 

This time, a Navy Cross group to 2nd Marine Raider Battalion, Pvt. Richard N. Olbert.

 

What does everyone think? Personally, I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole..

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On 12/17/2022 at 4:06 PM, Pete-o MSU said:

More fakes…whoever is doing these is dumping them fast all over 

 

centurion auctions

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The following are back up for sale by Centurion Auctions on LiveAuctioneers..

 

WWII USMC PARAMARINE PURPLE HEART KIA NAMED GROUP
WWII USMC Named Purple Heart and Silver Star Grouping. Named to Private First Class Clement M. Vierra.

He served with Company C, 1st Parachute Battalion, 1st Parachute Regiment, 1st Marine Amphibious Corps, FMF in the battle of Bougainville, Solomon Islands where he was killed in action on November 29th, 1943.

 

WWII USMC KIA MEDAL GROUPINGS OF 2 BROTHERS
WWII USMC 2 Brothers, Sergeants John K. and Roscoe E. Lamkin KIA Medal groups. Grouping of John K. Lamkin, KIA on Iwo Jima.

 

WWII USMC IWO JIMA NAVY CROSS MEDAL KIA GROUPING

WWII 5th Marine Division Iwo Jima KIA Named Medal Grouping. Named to a USMCR Private Wesley Eagle. Killed in Action on March 10th, 1945 on Iwo Jima.

 

WWII USMC NAMED PURPLE HEART KIA MEDAL GROUPING

WWII USMC Named Purple Heart KIA Medal Grouping. Named to Sergeant Gordon W. Purvis, KIA on Wake Island.

 

 

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Another high end fake grouping? Also being sold by Centurion Auction.

 

WWII US COAST GUARD KIA NAMED D-DAY MEDAL GROUPING
WWII US Coast Guardsman Omaha Beach D-Day Landing KIA Named Medal Grouping. Named to USCG Seaman First Class Leslie W. Fritz. Killed in Action on June 6th,1945 during Omaha Beach Landing.

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Also questionable? It doesn't look like the usual small machine engraving I'm used seeing on WWII KIA's.

 

Brother grouping to Tech. Sergeant Harold J. and Technician 5th Grade Donald G. Neidel, who served with the 96th Infantry Division and 4th Corps?

 

Again also sold by Centurion Auctions.

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This one has me curious as it seems to me, that the engraving is correct?

Hand engraved Silver Star and large machine engraved Purple Heart?

 

WWII US ARMY KIA OFFICER NAMED MEDALS & FLAG GROUP
WWII US Army Officer Silver Star and Purple Heart medal and Burial Flag. Named to 2nd Lieutenant Cecil Blanton Patterson of the 157th Infantry, 45th Infantry Division who was KIA on February 15th 1944.

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On 12/26/2022 at 4:15 AM, S1991 said:

Also questionable? It doesn't look like the usual small machine engraving I'm used seeing on WWII KIA's.

 

Brother grouping to Tech. Sergeant Harold J. and Technician 5th Grade Donald G. Neidel, who served with the 96th Infantry Division and 4th Corps?

 

Again also sold by Centurion Auctions.

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I owned this group years ago. It’s 100% right. Unfortunately, whoever owned it after I did lost the huge amount of original documentation and paperwork that came with his group.

 

Donald was in an Engineer Maintenance co in the ETO. Harold was in the 96th.

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On 12/26/2022 at 4:20 AM, S1991 said:

This one has me curious as it seems to me, that the engraving is correct?

Hand engraved Silver Star and large machine engraved Purple Heart?

 

WWII US ARMY KIA OFFICER NAMED MEDALS & FLAG GROUP
WWII US Army Officer Silver Star and Purple Heart medal and Burial Flag. Named to 2nd Lieutenant Cecil Blanton Patterson of the 157th Infantry, 45th Infantry Division who was KIA on February 15th 1944.

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Looks fine to me.

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On 12/26/2022 at 12:55 PM, S1991 said:

Another USMC fake engraving that has popped up? Again at an Auction House on LiveAuctioneers.

 

This time, a Navy Cross group to 2nd Marine Raider Battalion, Pvt. Richard N. Olbert.

 

What does everyone think? Personally, I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole..

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It appears that the Auction House has removed the bad engraved USMC Purple Hearts. 

Might have gotten word that they were fakes?

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I'm not wild about Harry, even without a loupe or microscope.   Compare the M  and K where the diagonals have a gap to the W in the other medal.  Compare the two "A"s in Lang to the two "A"s in Harry medal.  Compare the first two "R"s that don't look too bad to the last "R".   Compare the overall uniform thickness of the cuts in Arrington medal to Harry, particularly the two verticals in the "H" and the "A" preceding the two "R"s.   Overall,  I see an assured, smoothness and even pressure applied for the cuts of the other two medals that just ain't in Harry's.  Also, unless I missed it,  neither of the two guys who have professionally studied a lot of US PH and valor award engraving and are commenting on this post, have given Harry's group of two medals the Good Housekeeping Seal, despite it being posted twice. 🙄

 

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As examples of authentic, officially engraved WWII KIA  PHs,  these two both came "out of the wood" with lots of original paper and photos.  The first is to a USMC  F-4 Corsair aviator who was MIA in the Philippines in March 1945, declared KIA a year later and engraved between May-July 1946.  It came from his niece who was given it by her grandmother who was given it posthumously along with his Air Medal.  The second is a bona fide example of WWII Army "large machine engraving" to a sergeant killed in the Anzio breakout on May 23, 1944.   It came from a relative's abandoned storage space, with lots of paper, including Gold Star certif., Presidential Accolade,  and family prepared religious graphic memorials.   And it came with with his Navy father's Sampson group and an original paper to that.

 

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11 hours ago, aerialbridge said:

I'm not wild about Harry, even without a loupe or microscope.   Compare the M  and K where the diagonals have a gap to the W in the other medal.  Compare the two "A"s in Lang to the two "A"s in Harry medal.  Compare the first two "R"s that don't look too bad to the last "R".   Compare the overall uniform thickness of the cuts in Arrington medal to Harry, particularly the two verticals in the "H" and the "A" preceding the two "R"s.   Overall,  I see an assured, smoothness and even pressure applied for the cuts of the other two medals that just ain't in Harry's.  Also, unless I missed it,  neither of the two guys who have professionally studied a lot of US PH and valor award engraving and are commenting on this post, have given Harry's group of two medals the Good Housekeeping Seal, despite it being posted twice. 🙄

 

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Madokoro's group has been discussed on this forum and others, and that grouping does not have any fans among those of us who study engraving. 

 

Kurt

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