Is this medal naming correct? Post your engraving questions here!

[Giuseppe]

4 hours ago, Dave said:

Dear Giuseppe:

I encourage you to read through the posts here on the forum before making any purchases as you can learn a lot with regard to what the medals are supposed to look like that you are looking for. 

For example, this Air Medal is a generic Air Medal from the 1970s or 1980s, awarded to members of all branches of the service. Could it have been awarded to a Navy pilot? Yes, it could have been, but there's nothing to specifically show that it was awarded to a Navy pilot or an Air Force pilot, etc. 

 

With regard to medal engraving, that is also rather complex. I wrote a book on the subject, but the book assumes the reader has a general understanding of the types of medals awarded during WW2, as I concentrate more on the styles of engraving rather than the actual construction of the medals themselves. 

 

As a general rule, all military decorations (e.g. those medals awarded for valor or merit) awarded posthumously from WW2 through the middle of the Vietnam War for all branches of the service had the recipient's name engraved on the reverse by official government engravers (contract or government employees). 

 

Good Conduct medals are different in that prior to WW2, Navy Good Conducts were named. However, during WW2, not all were named. Similarly, some Army Good Conduct medals were also named during WW2, but the majority were not. If the Good Conduct medals were awarded posthumously, they were engraved with the recipient's name.

 

High medals for valor and merit were often named before they were awarded by official government engravers, but this is not always the case. Even the Medal of Honor, not awarded posthumously, was often awarded in the field with no name engraving on it. 

 

Likewise, people could get their medals engraved. They could send them in to the government and have them engraved, or they could have a jeweler or professional engraver inscribe their name on the medal. 

 

There are many, many variations and very few things are "always" with the exception of posthumous medals being engraved with the recipient's name. Beyond this, there is an entirely different discussion when it comes to "correct" engraving, fake engraving, and so on. 

 

I hope this helps!

Dave

 

Link to my book on amazon (I believe it is available in Italy?) 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Sacrifice-Remembered-Posthumous-Awards-Purple/dp/0979284910

 

 

Thank you very much for the explanations. for now I have never bought medals yet.  

 

The book in Italy is not found :-(

 

[Basic Rifleman]

I just purchased this DFC and just wanted to check on the engraving. I'm assuming this medal is from WWII; should it also be numbered? I can't find the gentleman online either. I just want to make sure this medal is good to go before keeping it.... Thanks in advance for any help that you can offer....

[decwriter]

Your DFC has the correct engraving for WWII.  It’s good.

[decwriter]

Unfortunately, the only DFC card on file at NARA is for a SSgt Thomas L. Clemons A.C. with ASN: 35774075 and it reflect General Orders No. 68, Hqrs. Seventh Air Force, June 5, 1945, but it is possible his last name was misspelled and this is your guy. If it is numbered, the numbers would be at the bottom of the cross. I don’t think this DFC is numbered though. 

[USMarineCorps]

What are your thoughts on the engraving on this pair? Obviously these are post WW2 reissue medals, but I am not sure whether the engraving is government issue or privately done.

 

 

[Mr. Victor Charles]

1 hour ago, USMarineCorps said:

What are your thoughts on the engraving on this pair? Obviously these are post WW2 reissue medals, but I am not sure whether the engraving is government issue or privately done.

 

 

The two on the right are more modern day crimp brooch. The heart is a WWII, slot brooch period piece. 

[Dave]

On 10/19/2022 at 2:20 PM, USMarineCorps said:

What are your thoughts on the engraving on this pair? Obviously these are post WW2 reissue medals, but I am not sure whether the engraving is government issue or privately done.

 

 

 

 

 

These do look like 1980s official government replacements. 

[USMarineCorps]

On 10/25/2022 at 8:54 AM, Dave said:

 

 

These do look like 1980s official government replacements. 

 

Thank you for your input! I could not find another example of these "slanted Os" elsewhere. I will need to go through some of my replacement groupings to make sure.

[Roystone]

Here's a PH named to "Willie H Windham" which looks very much to me as a WW2 made PH, that has been taken from old QM stock and issued ( as a replacement or even first award?) maybe around 1991 to the recipient as a late claim award? I assume it would have been sent in a modern Arrow-type case and not a "coffin" case. SSgt Windham died in 1993, so the period for it's issuance would be about right. He was wounded 29th March 1945 whilst serving with Co.E 507th PIR having been a jumper in Operation Varsity.

Dave, can you corroborate that's a govt issue medal...and the type of engraving method? (Your detailed analysis on the whole subject really is second to none!)

 

Another question strikes me though; I bought this PH happy in the knowledge that it's a "modern" issue, albeit on a WW2- made PH (which is some recompense) and bearing in mind that he likely never even received a PH during WW2, which would probably have been unnamed anyway..? To that end I'm still happy that I have a WW2 vet's medal. I have in a different life, I also collected British Victorian medals, which were very rarely issued later after such a long period of time! Hypothetically if I were collecting say, Waterloo medals and was offered one to a man who only received it fifty years later, I wouldn't neccessarily turn it down! (Not that that ever happened...it's just to illustrate the point) But this is another discussion topic I guess......R

[MWalsh]

26 minutes ago, Roystone said:

Here's a PH named to "Willie H Windham" which looks very much to me as a WW2 made PH, that has been taken from old QM stock and issued ( as a replacement or even first award?) maybe around 1991 to the recipient as a late claim award? I assume it would have been sent in a modern Arrow-type case and not a "coffin" case. SSgt Windham died in 1993, so the period for it's issuance would be about right. He was wounded 29th March 1945 whilst serving with Co.E 507th PIR having been a jumper in Operation Varsity.

Dave, can you corroborate that's a govt issue medal...and the type of engraving method? (Your detailed analysis on the whole subject really is second to none!)

 

Another question strikes me though; I bought this PH happy in the knowledge that it's a "modern" issue, albeit on a WW2- made PH (which is some recompense) and bearing in mind that he likely never even received a PH during WW2, which would probably have been unnamed anyway..? To that end I'm still happy that I have a WW2 vet's medal. I have in a different life, I also collected British Victorian medals, which were very rarely issued later after such a long period of time! Hypothetically if I were collecting say, Waterloo medals and was offered one to a man who only received it fifty years later, I wouldn't neccessarily turn it down! (Not that that ever happened...it's just to illustrate the point) But this is another discussion topic I guess......R

 

Well, I am not Dave but I can help on this one. 

 

Yes, the engraving is officially government done on replacement awards, and from the time period you mentioned, 1990's would be about right. And yes, most likely an Arrow case. 

 

He may well have gotten a Purple Heart in WW2, it would have been un-named most likely, and for many reasons he may have gotten a replacement set; lost the original, stolen, burned in a house fire, who knows. He or his family may even have the original and just asked for and got a replacement set of medals too. It is a regular thing.   

 

[KASTAUFFER]

3 hours ago, Roystone said:

Here's a PH named to "Willie H Windham" which looks very much to me as a WW2 made PH, that has been taken from old QM stock and issued ( as a replacement or even first award?) maybe around 1991 to the recipient as a late claim award? I assume it would have been sent in a modern Arrow-type case and not a "coffin" case. SSgt Windham died in 1993, so the period for it's issuance would be about right. He was wounded 29th March 1945 whilst serving with Co.E 507th PIR having been a jumper in Operation Varsity.

Dave, can you corroborate that's a govt issue medal...and the type of engraving method? (Your detailed analysis on the whole subject really is second to none!)

 

Another question strikes me though; I bought this PH happy in the knowledge that it's a "modern" issue, albeit on a WW2- made PH (which is some recompense) and bearing in mind that he likely never even received a PH during WW2, which would probably have been unnamed anyway..? To that end I'm still happy that I have a WW2 vet's medal. I have in a different life, I also collected British Victorian medals, which were very rarely issued later after such a long period of time! Hypothetically if I were collecting say, Waterloo medals and was offered one to a man who only received it fifty years later, I wouldn't neccessarily turn it down! (Not that that ever happened...it's just to illustrate the point) But this is another discussion topic I guess......R

 

 

This medal has been re-ribboned. It was probably part of the huge lot of named medals the PQMD sold in the early 1990s as scrap ( They had no ribbons or suspensions). They made their way onto the market and people added ribbons and brooches to them. I personally saw big baggies of planchettes from this sale people were selling later on. 

 

Kurt

 

 

[Roystone]

Gentlemen, thanks for your opinions; greatly appreciated! Concerning the bags of planchettes sold off - how were these ever produced in the first place in sooo many numbers? Presumably these PHs were named from a "source" in anticipation of being claimed. If so, were they all destined only to be scrapped within a mere handful of years? Or were they applied for, never collected/ transmitted then stored and then sold off? There must be a lot of them ot there.

In a way, if these medals have been subsequently"restored" and the recipient was entitled to them anyway, then surely that's ok? (Personal preference as to whether they have a place in our own collections I know!) At least it's obvious what they are from the naming style.....

[KASTAUFFER]

They were medals or engraving that was considered not up to standards and considered defective . Some were mis-spelled. 
 

I Have seen hundreds of these.
 

I saw almost every decoration  produced and then engraved by the PQMD represented in the piles of medals except the MOH.  The vast majority were Purple Hearts and Bronze Stars , all engraved in the same style as yours. All 1980s-90s engraving.

 

For years I saw a number of US medal dealers trying to pass these off as posthumous World War II medals.

 

While technically not fakes, I feel that the government releasing these to the public in auction did a disservice. They all should’ve been melted down. None of the veterans whose names are on these medals  or their families actually touched them.

 

Frank Smith and I researched and wrote the first article on classifying  World War II US Army Purple Heart engraving styles for the OMSA journal in 1995.

 

Kurt

[Dave]

Here I was, just getting a haircut, and missed all the action! :)

 

I agree with what's been previously said. The engraving could be 80s or 90s official engraving, but someone definitely added an old brooch and ribbon to it in order to pass it off as a WW2 era medal (especially if he was a 507th veteran).

 

Was it a scrap one? I don't know. It could have possibly been something he was reissued before passing away...not impossible at all. But it definitely didn't come with the brooch or ribbon that's on it currently. 

 

Hope that helps!

 

[unclegrumpy]

19 hours ago, Dave said:

Was it a scrap one? I don't know. It could have possibly been something he was reissued before passing away...not impossible at all.

 

Two other categories that these PHs can fall into are medals that were returned for some reason...maybe undeliverable.  Another, is some could have gone unclaimed for a variety of other reasons.  One reason is sometimes families requested more than one medal, and maybe the Government engraved two, but then only decided to send one.  

 

I remember researching a Vietnam PH once that a newspaper article turned up about the family requesting a seventh medal...can't recall now if it said they were getting it or not.   But that is five or six replacement medals...and maybe one held back.  This is not perfectly on topic, but is an example of something that can happen with replacement medals.

 

That said, I think Kurt and Dave summed things up nicely.

 

 

[Dave]

1 hour ago, unclegrumpy said:

I remember researching a Vietnam PH once that a newspaper article turned up about the family requesting a seventh medal...can't recall now if it said they were getting it or not.   But that is five or six replacement medals...and maybe one held back.  This is not perfectly on topic, but is an example of something that can happen with replacement medals.

 

In a similar vein, I was looking for a Fort Hood posthumous Purple Heart to add to my book. While tracking down families, I came across an article about the presentation ceremony for one member's Purple Heart. The command awarding the medal made beautiful, framed displays of the Purple Heart medal and signed certificate. Not just for the widow, but one for the widow, the divorced parents (they got separate ones), and each adult child. Total of seven medals and seven certificates, all framed. Which was the "actual" posthumous medal? No one will ever know. 

[Roystone]

Dave et al,

Thanks for all the replies and opinion

 

On 11/4/2022 at 7:21 PM, Dave said:

 

Was it a scrap one? I don't know. It could have possibly been something he was reissued before passing away...not impossible at all. But it definitely didn't come with the brooch or ribbon that's on it currently. 

 

 

 

 

That said, do you therefore think it's ok to restore an "original" suspension ring/ribbon assembly to it, more fitting to an early nineties issue PH? This would certainly put it "more" right and is easily done. (I already have a mint condition cardboard boxed/cased dated refurbished WW2 PH set to compare to and use as a template). I ask, because I have restored orpahn British Victorian planchettes in the past with correct suspension and clasps, where the medal merits it; this, in our fraternity, is perfectly acceptable and (to me) pays considerable respect to the medal and the man behind it. Not so worried about the economics-it's the story after all!

 

[Dave]

2 hours ago, Roystone said:

Dave et al,

Thanks for all the replies and opinion

 

 

That said, do you therefore think it's ok to restore an "original" suspension ring/ribbon assembly to it, more fitting to an early nineties issue PH? This would certainly put it "more" right and is easily done. (I already have a mint condition cardboard boxed/cased dated refurbished WW2 PH set to compare to and use as a template). I ask, because I have restored orpahn British Victorian planchettes in the past with correct suspension and clasps, where the medal merits it; this, in our fraternity, is perfectly acceptable and (to me) pays considerable respect to the medal and the man behind it. Not so worried about the economics-it's the story after all!

 

 

 

Personal opinion...I think restoring it to what it was (or should have been) originally is absolutely fine. 

[Roystone]

Thanks Dave, valued. 

Occurs to me that I've digressed from the original thread a little.

Now to find some other engraved material.....!

[kcmo]

Interested in opinions on this medal and telegram.  Seen several USMC KIA PHs recently up for sale and a few have been questionable.  Thanks in advance. 

[swabbie]

Looks 100% right.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

On 11/8/2022 at 5:21 PM, swabbie said:

Looks 100% right.

I agree Swabbie. Looks spot on to me as well. If you know how to decode WU telegrams, you can see that it too is an original. This Marine looks to be a Midway casualty.

[KASTAUFFER]

I would love to get everybody’s opinions on this group. Seems odd to me this is a type II medal when his official date of death is August 1946. It should be a type III with plain engraving. 
 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Type 1 and type 2 hearts were awarded in Vietnam and WWII Army types awarded up through OIF, as I'm sure you know. I think it shows that there are no absolutes with these. The engraving looks good on them.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

2 hours ago, KASTAUFFER said:

I would love to get everybody’s opinions on this group. Seems odd to me this is a type II medal when his official date of death is August 1946. It should be a type III with plain engraving. 
 

Just looking at the "3" and the "1945"  they look kinda funky. These two look like they were done privately.