Is this medal naming correct? Post your engraving questions here!

[KASTAUFFER]

There are a few more I may post later, but this is it for now!

 

Kurt

[KASTAUFFER]

Here is another example of Navy engraving missing the “diamonds” as Pete described earlier in the thread. The other disconnect on this group is the engraving style on the Air Medal. Its engraved in a 1944-45 style, however the medal was not actually authorized and issued until 1947. 1947 engraving is plain with no decorations or facets, 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave]

As part of an education in engraving, I spent time with a professional medal/order restorer from overseas (thus some of the odd spellings and grammar). We've corresponded in great detail and here are some points from our discussions that others may find interesting:

 

One of the biggest problems I have encountered on US medals is 'forging naming' by means of amateurish hand engraving. Panto work has been duplicated by lazer cutting as of last 20 or so years and it is very difficult (if even) to be able to tell as both include similar mechanics although are different - yet the outcome is very similar. Pantos are not that expensive any more and there are plenty of used machines and font plates around, actually cheaper then the the full hand engraving or air assist setups.

 

You mentioned about the lazer vs panto style work - lazer setups can be programmed for specific mistakes - including particular graver drag - those would be of 'predictable' look but to even advanced collector or even average museum curator - not objectionable at all. Very few people (in the World) look at phaleristics the same way I try to.

In terms of what can be made or altered.

There were shops in Ukraine and China (purportedly 2 in the US as well) which specialized in forgeries of awards (not just American - they are choosy and go for full out otherwise non attainable items - or high value). Some of these have been around since at least early 1990s - the Ukrainian shop had Bulgarians custom build computers capable of rendering and programming flaws and scratches, including random and unpredictable graver drags.

As a side note, Bulgarians did most of the high end computer tech for the Soviets and were some of the best around.

 

Chinese (purportedly) purchased Ukrainian set up and made copies. They can produce old looking engraving and they add hand cuts - sets of highest and rarest classes of Order of Double Dragon in gold have been in circulation and most large auction houses have sold these - guarantees of authenticity and all. Made in 1990s and still being done. Those can get into 100's of thousands.

 

Fellow in Budapest (Hungary) was doing naming on US medals back in 1996, I saw him work with my own eyes - I met him when I was studying order manufacturing techniques with the shop of Anton Reitterer in Vienna at the time. He invited me home for the weekend, which was very nice. When he showed me his activity the next day - I was astonished. He said it was almost like "printing US dollars". He worked with couple big American militaria dealers - I will refrain from sharing the names but both were/are well known and respected. Way it worked, they sent him blank medals and list of names to be engraved - both hand and machine with specifications. He actually had no idea what kind of money they were getting for these but was very happy and made way more money than his small jewellery shop normally did. He knew what he was doing but cared less, money was good etc. We corresponded for some time but he passed away few years ago. I know he also forged line of Romanian high end orders - this was commissioned by owner of large phaleristic auction house in Switzerland/UK. It started out as a proverbial dare but quality was very good and guy 'ordered' several pieces. I still see some of those particular pieces sold via big auction houses every so often.

One thing to keep in mind, engraving letters is quite different then cutting scrolls and other flowing designs. Even if done not so well, only professionals or long time aficionados can actually tell if scroll/leaf curvature is off or shading or cross hatch is not perfect. Average customer is usually quite oblivious to such minutiae. Now, letters and numbers are something everyone knows and if not done right - everyone can tell something is not correct or at least 'not nice'. Hand engraving letters will test you. There is no 'delete' key. Once that line or seriff is cut - there is no clever correction - it can only get deeper or wider. You cannot add mini scroll or leaf tip to mask an error. There are small things that can be done, burnishing etc but are relatively superficial.

 

I found that absolute best tool for my study or work (authentication especially) is a microscope. It will be vital to any engraving that you might try doing but aside from that - it will show you things that even the best magnifying glass cannot. I can (usually ) tell if engraving was done with air assist or by hand pushing or chisel and hammer - even if it is the so called bright cut.

Understanding engraving methods and work on period specific and issued medals is as you are certainly aware super important. Air assist cut name on WW1 medal would call for immediate dismisal in terms of it being genuine. Air assist did not yet exist. Lazer engraved things have specific tell tale signs and can be identified. 

 

Speaking of terminology, we have such bad standards with phaleristics. Many authors (and I have worked with several, on number of phaleristic works) are for the most part oblivious in terms of studying the manufacturing methods and what things are actually called and will write borderline nonsense which translates into collecting mess and exploitation by the forgers. Etching or chasing is usually confused for engraving etc.

Yes, microscopes can get expensive but you would do just fine with something like the AmScope or such (used Meiji's can be found for reasonable funds and are very good). I advanced to A60 (Leica product) after many years of using cheaper microscope which I still have and use a lot. When I decipher hallmarks and maker marks - it is indispensable - truly. What it is - is the stereoscopic viewing with much larger depth of field and width of field than any lupe can give you and it is reasonably distortion free. Lupes have their place of course but scope is that much more. If you are going to try hand engraving - scope is very nice to have, I'd say essential if you are trying to do letters/number. If you cannot precisely see what you are cutting - where your graver enters and exits, how it flares and when it starts to drag - it might frustrate you (I know it did when I was starting out and still does when I try to cut something fast and only use my Optivisor).

Most of naming on medals were done (for centuries) with narrow (as in 90º and less), onglette, round, knife and flats - and liners too. The very popular 105-120º are not really that useful for medal work and are better suited for scroll work. 

Even semi-complex letters are rarely cut with just one graver geometry. You might start with one, often progress to another and then finish with yet another. If you're doing serifs, that could mean another tools and if you're texturing your large stems - that would dictate particular width flat or such. So it really depends what font and size it is that you're cutting and no graver will just cut all with one - even Sam will change tool to finish his letters.

 

Looking at some of the engraving on US medals that I could readily find on the web (Purple Hearts especially) - I think most of the work was very hastily engraved at best - probably done in rudementory vise or peg vise and with simple geometry graver- usually small rounds or 90s. I mean - some of the naming had to be done in 15 minutes or so. I'd be ashamed to release something like this to customer - regardless how little they paid. That's just me. Some are better then others. Whoever decided that this would be an OK practice clearly had not been well informed or had no sense of esthetics. Not that pento work is nice - but at least it has some repeatable esthetics. Pento obviously has it's place but it is not hand engraving. Cheaper laser machines are more of regulated scratches and very shallow lines. High end machines are programmable and lazer is really a precise guide to proper carbon/carballoy knife - so those are a bit of hybrid of both thus the most 'dangerous' to what we are talking about.

[Dave]

A couple of more bits regarding specific medals. These are his comments regarding the below (very real) medal:
 

Magnification is not enough to tell if it was done with air assist (I would look for very tiny progression marks around the 'outer parts' of the round graver - those which usually don't get such polished sharpening - as does face and some of the heels). If not assisted, this was done by hand pushing - the oldest and simplest technique. Hand pushing typically has mark on the entry and mark just before the exit (bur-lift out). Properly and well done, hand pushing (and all other methods as a manner of fact) would also involve 'back cutting - or squaring off or finishing'  the ends - so you come at it from opposite direction as to where you made the original cut. This allows for making final corrections to your ends - sort of making things appear nicer - some advanced engravers will start or finish their lines just short of the very end/beginning - just so they can back cut with more 'end' precision. This was done by and engraver with good tool control and well polished graver. The idea here is - the nicer the polishing the smoother the line will appear and the easier it is to push and achieve consistent line. Also, push gravers will have typically longer heel then those used in air assisted thus potentially leaving more marring on surrounding material the tighter turns or at the beginning of any cut (this is called 'heel drag'). 

 

[Dave]

And comments on another real medal:

I think it was also hand pushed but engraver was either rushing or his graver was becoming dull and it caused intermittent stoppage. Bear in mind that with letters featuring rounded parts (C's, O's, B's etc) engraver will often stop to re position the vice and this will cause the lines. Now, with hammer and chisel technique - the intervals are usually a bit more predictable and visible as work is NOT ROTATED - instead - the engraver will balance on their feet and 'walk around' to make these cuts. This of course this is very subjective to circumstances, some hammer and chisel engravers will work on chairs and rotate and lock their vice with frequency to do the rounds. Still, this was done by engraver who simple did not bother to make it nicer. You can do any of the 3 techniques to get these cuts done but if you gently follow by final hand push with well polished round in the end and you will have much nicer cut. The straight lines not so much but rounds often will require this. 

[KASTAUFFER]

3 hours ago, Dave said:

Here's a case of "buy the item, not the story". The medal is a 80s or 90s engraved piece, but with an incorrect ring attachment. And then, it was being sold as a posthumous medal from WW2. 

These are the medals sold in a Govt auction by the PQMD in the early 90s as scrap. An enterprising individual added rings since most did not have them.

 

These were sold to unsuspecting collectors as posthumous World War II medals with casualty research files. When the sellers were confronted about what they were doing, the reaction was “, these are officially engraved medals so I’m not selling fakes “. That may be true but they also weren’t telling these unsuspecting folks it was 1990s engraving either. They were being priced as if they were original World War II examples.

[S1991]

Thank you @Daveand @KASTAUFFERfor showing us these examples. They definitely show the engraving styles and the comparisons.

 

Its very informative and hopefully it'll save us from buying fake engraved medals. 

However I do wonder how many are out there and if one would have a fake engraved medal.. What to do with it?

 

Keep it for reference or sell it as scrap or for what it is, a fake?

[KASTAUFFER]

This is a very obvious fake that breaks a number of Army engraving rules. The engraving font  is wrong, it says KIA on it, and it has a date.  This one isn’t even close to any officially known named World War II army purple hearts. 
 

When Frank Smith and I cataloged over 500 posthumous army purple hearts in 1995 for our article on Purple Heart engraving in the OMSA journal, there was nothing that was engraved like this. The information has been out there for 30 years now.

 

I knew Al Gleim extremely well and it was he that pushed Frank and I to write the article. We convinced him that script Purple Heart engraving and stamped Purple Heart engraving were correct styles. 
 

I don’t think this one would fool anybody.

 

 

[S1991]

7 hours ago, KASTAUFFER said:

This is a very obvious fake that breaks a number of Army engraving rules. The engraving font  is wrong, it says KIA on it, and it has a date.  This one isn’t even close to any officially known named World War II army purple hearts. 
 

When Frank Smith and I cataloged over 500 posthumous army purple hearts in 1995 for our article on Purple Heart engraving in the OMSA journal, there was nothing that was engraved like this. The information has been out there for 30 years now.

 

I knew Al Gleim extremely well and it was he that pushed Frank and I to write the article. We convinced him that script Purple Heart engraving and stamped Purple Heart engraving were correct styles. 
 

I don’t think this one would fool anybody.

 

 

Would that article in the OMSA Journal still be around? If so where could I get a copy?

[KASTAUFFER]

5 minutes ago, S1991 said:

Would that article in the OMSA Journal still be around? If so where could I get a copy?

There have been back issue copies on eBay from time to time, but the information in our article was incorporated into Dave’s book. If you want the information the best place to get it now is Dave’s book.There have been back issue copies on eBay from time to time, but the information in our article was incorporated into Dave’s book. If you want the information the best place to get it now is Dave’s book.

 

Also, if you are an OMSA member, you can see the back issues on their website.

 

https://www.omsa.org

[swabbie]

Now time for fan mail.  Early on when I decided to look for an AAC group and had not seen but one AC Purple Heart, I fell for a DFC/AM/PH group with a copy of a newspaper clipping from none other than Bobvn.  Kurt contacted me and sent a copy of his and Frank's presentation which they gave at an OMSA convention.  In it was the exact group with the line, "Made to Deceive".  That presentation saved me countless dollars.  Thanks again, Kurt!  You're getting to see a number of fakes in this thread and the advice of buying a copy of Dave's book, "Sacrifices Remembered" is excellent.  It should take care of you and other followers of this thread who want to see many high quality photos of known good WWII era PHs from all branches of the service.  In it you will see different "hands" -- engraver styles if you will.  Knowledge is power.

-Dave

[GIKyle]

Dave and I both saw these medals on eBay in 2020 and decided they looked good.  When received they were one-look nopes.  Photo dump follows with and without a loupe. Luz A. Cisneros. 

 

 

[KASTAUFFER]

I thought I was add this one to the thread,  This is described as a "WWI DSC" traceable by number , but its actually a WWII DSC planchette that has had a number added to it and reribboned on a wrap brooch that is not a WWI DSC brooch.  The ribbon ring is way too large for a WWI DSC as well. 

 

[Dave]

For comparison purposes, this is what a WW1-timeframe DSC looks like. 

[Dave]

eBay never ceases to disappoint. This group has been listed for a bit, but I didn't post it earlier. The engraving is no where near close to anything legitimate. 

[veklee]

thank you for these postings. i would like to thank KASTAUFFER for putting up with a dopey englishman and his advise much appreciated 

[Jeff V.]

I think it is very important to share the names of the crooked dealers. It is one thing to make a mistake and quite another to ship blank medals off for fake engraving. That is blatant fraud. As long as the collecting community refuses to call a spade a spade the problem with fakes will only continue and increase.

[Giuseppe]

Buonasera a tutti. Ho letto questo argomento. Ma poi ogni medaglia assegnata è stata incisa. corretto? quindi le molte medaglie che sono in vendita senza scrivere, significa che non vengono assegnate medaglie e hanno poco valore. questo vale per le medaglie assegnate sia nella seconda guerra che nel dopoguerra Giusto?

[Giuseppe]

Good evening everyone. I have read this topic. But then every medal awarded was engraved. correct? so the many medals that are for sale without writing, means that no medals are awarded and have little value. this applies to the medals awarded both in the Second World War and in the postwar period. Right?

[FriarChuck]

3 hours ago, Giuseppe said:

Good evening everyone. I have read this topic. But then every medal awarded was engraved. correct? so the many medals that are for sale without writing, means that no medals are awarded and have little value. this applies to the medals awarded both in the Second World War and in the postwar period. Right?

Guiseppe,

 

No from my understanding (and I know more knowledgeable medal collectors will chime in if I’m wrong), unlike UK medals, most US medals were awarded unengraved. Usually medals that were engraved, especially for post war medals, are for KIAs. It’s seems like medals were engraved more frequently for non KIAs early in the war but later they became less common. Good Conduct Medals were also often engraved even if the recipient was alive but that is not a hard and fast rule either. But to answer your question, lots of issued medals were never engraved.

 

Friar

[Brian Dentino]

4 hours ago, Giuseppe said:

Good evening everyone. I have read this topic. But then every medal awarded was engraved. correct? so the many medals that are for sale without writing, means that no medals are awarded and have little value. this applies to the medals awarded both in the Second World War and in the postwar period. Right?

In WWII most, but not all engraved medals, were awarded to KIA service persons.  A wounded person in a medical unit would have been awarded a PH "in the field" and would not have been engraved.  Same with an AM/DFC/SS/etc. those that were awarded to a KIA person would have been officially engraved with either hand engraving, small machine, large machine engraving.  Most awards that were actually given out were unnamed due to them being awarded to a service member being wounded and awarded in the theater vs. KIA.

[RDUNE]

On 9/3/2022 at 12:29 PM, KASTAUFFER said:

These next shots I am posting are from Tom Lanes old website PURPLEHEARTS.NET. It does not exist anymore. I will also use Toms original comments.

 

December 2005: A Purple Heart grouping to a Francis L. Hutchinson. This lot came with what appeared to be an original Memorial Certificate and Presidential Accolade. The medal itself is privately engraved, however. The key to the private engraving is the two different sized fonts, as well as the fact that officially engraved posthumous Purple Hearts were never engraved with the middle initial taking up its own line.  The seller was a general militaria dealer, so he probably doesn't know what to look for in engraving styles.  This lot closed at $250.00

 

 

On the topic of middle initial on it's own line, here is a thread about one I have that showed a few other known examples: 

 

-Ryan 

[RDUNE]

On 9/3/2022 at 9:55 AM, Dave said:

This particular seller had the Pye Purple Heart as well as several others. They're pretty much hideous, to be honest. Incorrect engraving, incorrect font, artificial distressing. This Purple Heart to Harry S. Mack is really a mess...

 

 

 

I know who bought this one on ebay, and when he sent me pics of it I told him it was bad. I thought he returned it but he ended up trading it to a local picker, who then offered it to me. I told him it was fake and before I could get my hands on it to get it out of circulation he sold it at a gun show to a dealer who didn't know any better. The dealer was told after the fact that the medal was bad, and he's a stand up guy so I don't think he'd sell it again knowing it's bad. He's a TR dealer & collector who just didn't know US medals and got taken by the picker. The last I heard this one was in the Blacksburg/Christiansburg, VA area. 

-Ryan 

[Giuseppe]

 

therefore it becomes difficult to understand, if you find a medal for sale, if that medal has been awarded and if it is from the Second World War or is post-war. i was looking at a good conduct medal and a US Navy Air medal pilot medal

[Dave]

Dear Giuseppe:

I encourage you to read through the posts here on the forum before making any purchases as you can learn a lot with regard to what the medals are supposed to look like that you are looking for. 

For example, this Air Medal is a generic Air Medal from the 1970s or 1980s, awarded to members of all branches of the service. Could it have been awarded to a Navy pilot? Yes, it could have been, but there's nothing to specifically show that it was awarded to a Navy pilot or an Air Force pilot, etc. 

 

With regard to medal engraving, that is also rather complex. I wrote a book on the subject, but the book assumes the reader has a general understanding of the types of medals awarded during WW2, as I concentrate more on the styles of engraving rather than the actual construction of the medals themselves. 

 

As a general rule, all military decorations (e.g. those medals awarded for valor or merit) awarded posthumously from WW2 through the middle of the Vietnam War for all branches of the service had the recipient's name engraved on the reverse by official government engravers (contract or government employees). 

 

Good Conduct medals are different in that prior to WW2, Navy Good Conducts were named. However, during WW2, not all were named. Similarly, some Army Good Conduct medals were also named during WW2, but the majority were not. If the Good Conduct medals were awarded posthumously, they were engraved with the recipient's name.

 

High medals for valor and merit were often named before they were awarded by official government engravers, but this is not always the case. Even the Medal of Honor, not awarded posthumously, was often awarded in the field with no name engraving on it. 

 

Likewise, people could get their medals engraved. They could send them in to the government and have them engraved, or they could have a jeweler or professional engraver inscribe their name on the medal. 

 

There are many, many variations and very few things are "always" with the exception of posthumous medals being engraved with the recipient's name. Beyond this, there is an entirely different discussion when it comes to "correct" engraving, fake engraving, and so on. 

 

I hope this helps!

Dave

 

Link to my book on amazon (I believe it is available in Italy?) 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Sacrifice-Remembered-Posthumous-Awards-Purple/dp/0979284910