501st PIR steel shell

[Boston1944]

My first post and wanted to introduce my collection to the forum as I am considering selling some of it. I realise that I cannot sell via the site being a newbie but it will be interesting to gauge the reaction of the members. This first example is a fairly 'patinated' 501st PIR helmet shell with quite nice remaining painted decal. This has been in my collection for a number of years and has been quite special to me as I grew up on the edge of Hamstead Park, the home of the 501 prior to their departure for Normandy. Hope you enjoy seeing it. 

[manayunkman]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Looks like the tactical mark was painted more than once.

 

The pot have swivel bails?

 

Where did it come from?

 

Im no expert but I do collect helmets, let’s see what others say.

 

Im concerned about the bails 

[Boston1944]

Thank you. I bought the helmet from a collector in Belgium although he was convinced that it originally came from Holland. Certainly had remained in Europe since WWII

[manayunkman]

Just now, Boston1944 said:

Thank you. I bought the helmet from a collector in Belgium although he was convinced that it originally came from Holland. Certainly had remained in Europe since WWII

What about the bails?

[Boston1944]

[Big Bear]

My opinion or two cents is this...The bails are not correct for D Day use based on the opinions of others who know more than I. The paint is an issue to me. I have never seen a helmet that was missing most all of its OD paint yet still had markings in better condition than the rest of the helmet. For me that doesn't add up.

[manayunkman]

The bails are the issue.

 

When did paratroopers get the swivel bail in Europe ?

 

When I first joined the forum and posted my favorite painted airborne helmet from WW2, a 307th Para engineers with swivel bails I found out that it was post war.

 

I was told that there is no proof that airborne swivel bails made it to Europe before the war ended.

 

 

[Boston1944]

Thank you for your comments thus far. I have to say that I don't necessarily agree with the comments regarding the swivel bales however. There are a number of provenanced bastogne-period helmets in collections on both sides of the Atlantic with swivel bales. This particular helmet was never claimed to have come from Normandy and I have always considered it to be a late war item. As far as the painted decal goes, it is perhaps the fault of the quality of the images that the amount of OD remaining looks so poor. There is significant levels of OD under the decal and around the more protected area just above the rim, probably typical of a shell that has spent many years turned up the 'wrong' way. 

BTW. The well provenanced 506th PIR shell in the collection also has swivel bales!

[bigschuss]

1 hour ago, Boston1944 said:

 As far as the painted decal goes, it is perhaps the fault of the quality of the images that the amount of OD remaining looks so poor. There is significant levels of OD under the decal and around the more protected area just above the rim, probably typical of a shell that has spent many years turned up the 'wrong' way. 

 

 

It's always important to post high quality pics if you want any kind of meaningful input.  If you're thinking about selling you might want to think about better pics too.  

[manayunkman]

 

 

Boy if you have proof that para units used swivel bails in Europe that is going to be incredible news and throw the helmet community world wide on its ear.

 

Do these European theater swivel bails have rock solid provenance ?

 

So far none of the Airborne specialists have chimed in.

[Boston1944]

Mark Bando certainly has one officer 502 example with swivel bails recorded on his site

[manayunkman]

30 minutes ago, Boston1944 said:

Mark Bando certainly has one officer 502 example with swivel bails recorded on his 

 

 

A casualty coming back to his unit at Bastogne is reissued a swivel bail.

 

That had to be extremely rare.

 

Ive shared beyond my education so I leave it to the more fluent.

 

Welcome to the forum and look forward to further posts.

[TheGoose]

Here's a few red flags that I see.

 

-The swivel bails would limit this item to Operation Market Garden or later.  After Normandy, the size of painted insignia shrunk dramatically.  I would expect the insignia to be about half the size seen on your shell.  In fact, this insignia is larger than most 501st insignia from Normandy. 

 

-The insignia should be painted on both sides.  It gives off the impression that whoever painted the insignia did not feel confident enough in his abilities to paint an honest-looking aged insignia on heavy rusting.  Based on the rust patterns, half of the insignia should be there.

 

-From your photo of the front of the helmet, there appears to be sand finish and a strange blue color paint, both indicative of post war refurbishment.

 

-The rim looks like it came in contact with chemicals designed to age paint.  Stainless steel rims, regardless if they were dug up out of the ground, will still maintain their shine.

[elh1311]

The 17th certainly used swivel bales during Varsity. I always thought the argument was the use of M1-C helmets, which no one has ever provided proof of swivel bales with factory paratrooper chinstraps being used during the war. Hasn't it been well documented that standard M1s were used with paratrooper liners? Interesting discussion for sure. 

[TheGoose]

36 minutes ago, elh1311 said:

The 17th certainly used swivel bales during Varsity. I always thought the argument was the use of M1-C helmets, which no one has ever provided proof of swivel bales with factory paratrooper chinstraps being used during the war. Hasn't it been well documented that standard M1s were used with paratrooper liners? Interesting discussion for sure. 

 

Yes, as far as I know, there is no evidence that factory made M1-Cs saw action in WWII. 

 

There is a ton of evidence that standard fixed bail shells were used with jump liners.  Many were issued standard fixed bails (especially for the Normandy campaign) as there were not enough M2's produced to meet demand.  One can assume standard swivel bail shells were issued and used in the same manner, although I have never really paid attention to that.  

[manayunkman]

The M1C and the swivel bail helmet are the same thing?

 

My understanding is that it was first introduced en masse to paratroopers after the beginning of 1945. Too late for Market. 
 

 

[Nickman983]

37 minutes ago, manayunkman said:

The M1C and the swivel bail helmet are the same thing?

 

My understanding is that it was first introduced en masse to paratroopers after the beginning of 1945. Too late for Market. 
 

 

I believe the question is whether or not standard swivel bails (i.e. without the male snaps) were used by airborne units like standard fixed bails sometimes were.

 

You're correct about M1Cs (with factory male snaps) being introduced too late to see any meaningful use. Standard swivel bails on the other hand did make their way into the ETO before wars end.

 

I'm not an expert on airborne helmets but with the current pictures I'm not a fan of this one. I'm interested in seeing better photos and hearing from our airborne experts though!

[elh1311]

38 minutes ago, manayunkman said:

The M1C and the swivel bail helmet are the same thing?

 

My understanding is that it was first introduced en masse to paratroopers after the beginning of 1945. Too late for Market. 
 

 

Physically speaking, the only difference between a standard M1 and an M1C is the chinstraps. The helmets themselves are the same. There have been documents posted on here about the specific government order/contract about the M1Cs themselves (when they were ordered, quantities, contract number, etc.). Factory M1Cs, both front and rear seam (front seam being the minority and I believe the first ones made) were ordered later in the war as a replacement for the M2. Like you said, there is no record of M1Cs being used in combat during the war. I've seen pictures of Varsity with swivel bales but with standard chinstraps, not paratrooper chinstraps. 

[manayunkman]

So the helmet in the Bando collection must be a regular swivel bail and not an M1C.

 

And if this helmet is legit it’s most likely a regular Army swivel bail reissued to a wounded trooper going back to his unit?

 

Thats one heck of a needle to thread.

[elh1311]

I think it was more common than one might realize. By the end of 1944, beginning of 1945, the Airborne divisions needed butts in seats, so to speak, and were taking whatever equipment they could get. Pictures from the 17th around the Bulge timeframe and up to Varsity in March 1945 show a solid mix of fixed and swivel bales with standard chinstraps. Granted, the 17th isn't the 101st but it would make sense that with the attrition among 101st units, they would take any helmet they could get their hands on. If anything, I'd say the tac mark looks a little big. By the end, the tac marks were considerably smaller than they were in June 1944. 

 

[king802]

I was in Bastogne back in April and visited the excellent 101st museum. 
Has previously stated from Market Garden onwards insignia was smaller. Standard swivel loop helmets were indeed used in Holland and till the end of the war. 
The museum has many fantastic helmets (the vast majority of which are fixed loop - I believe I only saw 3 or 4 swivel.

Anyway see attached picture for common size insignia used in Holland and Belgium.

[ken88]

The earliest documented photo taken of an M-1C dates back to the summer of 1945 (pay jump), but that doesn't mean they were never used before that photo was taken. I still believe batches were issued earlier than this, perhaps even pre-Varsity. The M-1C was designed because of the pressing need for good paratroop helmets as the previous designs were flawed and subject to shortages. I find it hard to believe they weren't rushed to theaters of operations as soon as they were made. Rest assured there were huge safety concerns involved when it comes to the non regulation make do helmets. There are reports of men being seriously injured and even a fatality from helmets raining down so there should be no mistake about the army's stance on the issues involving safety concerns and the need for better helmets sooner rather than later as lives literally depended on them. For some reason Rhine offensive photos or footage are far more difficult to come across in the quest for proof (mind you Varsity was the biggest airborne operation undertaken during World War 2 so the few more or less detailed shots that are out there are nowhere near representable) but there should be no doubt as to the use of swivel loop helmets in the ETO. The first ones saw combat in the summer of 1944, replacements may have been issued some before the Market Garden jump. In any case, yes they were issued to paratroops sent to the ETO.

That said I as well very much dislike being on the minus side when it comes to this particular helmet's authenticity. 

[elh1311]

3 hours ago, ken88 said:

The earliest documented photo taken of an M-1C dates back to the summer of 1945 (pay jump), but that doesn't mean they were never used before that photo was taken. I still believe batches were issued earlier than this, perhaps even pre-Varsity. The M-1C was designed because of the pressing need for good paratroop helmets as the previous designs were flawed and subject to shortages. I find it hard to believe they weren't rushed to theaters of operations as soon as they were made. Rest assured there were huge safety concerns involved when it comes to the non regulation make do helmets. There are reports of men being seriously injured and even a fatality from helmets raining down so there should be no mistake about the army's stance on the issues involving safety concerns and the need for better helmets sooner rather than later as lives literally depended on them. For some reason Rhine offensive photos or footage are far more difficult to come across in the quest for proof (mind you Varsity was the biggest airborne operation undertaken during World War 2 so the few more or less detailed shots that are out there are nowhere near representable) but there should be no doubt as to the use of swivel loop helmets in the ETO. The first ones saw combat in the summer of 1944, replacements may have been issued some before the Market Garden jump. In any case, yes they were issued to paratroops sent to the ETO.

That said I as well very much dislike being on the minus side when it comes to this particular helmet's authenticity. 

Michel de Trez, in American Paratrooper Helmets, has photos of swivel bales being used by the 17th prior to Varsity. He does state, like you did, that while M1Cs could have been issued prior to Varsity, there simply isn't any photographic proof. Not to divert too far from the topic, this being a purported 101st helmet after all, I agree that it is very conceivable that swivels bales were with the 101st prior to the end of the war. 

 

I just think the tac marks on this helmet are too big given other examples from the time and place this one was reported to have been recovered from. 

[Burning Hazard]

I'm not a fan of the 501st helmet, it appears to have had either an acid wash or flame burning applied. The large 501st diamond also looks SUS.

 

On a side note, Swivel Bails did make it into the Airborne and photographic evidence shows them being used just after D-Day. By the time Operation Varsity rolled around these were plentiful for both Army and Airborne.

 

Mark Band has some Swivel Bails that were used by the 101st in Bastogne (acquired directly from Vets or locals that found them after battle).

 

Pat

[Smokeshow]

Subbed on this one to see how it goes. I am really hoping this is authentic but am not holding my breath.