Opinions Please On eBay Navy Cross Medal

[AirMechanic]

These two medals sold not too long ago on eBay from a seller who is known in the past to have sold some dubious US medals. I believe the Navy Cross in this listing is supposed to be a rare Black Widow Navy Cross, but I have my doubts. The ending price is well below what an original one would sell for. Either the auction flew under the radar or the medal is no good. Any thoughts?

[aerialbridge]

Here's some photos of one from an old post, the one on the left.   I dunno,  looks pretty good to me, but I'd say ribbon not original.  I might've taken a flyer at $450.  I've never seen one in person, and probably a lot of collectors relying on pictures only, and perhaps reputation of this seller, as you allude to, held back on bidding.  

[aerialbridge]

 

[Blacksmith]

I’m glad you posted this topic.  I was watching this auction, and wondered why it quietly slipped away.

 

I was half-expecting the buyer to post it here when the auction ended, but it didn’t happen.

 

I’ll be interested to hear informed opinions on it.

[dhcoleterracina]

One thing that I know about NC's is the ribbon is one and a half inches across. You can see it on the trio posted but on the original posting, it looks smaller. 

[Basic Rifleman]

All the reasons above with regard to the seller, ribbon, AND I just got a funny feeling about the finish being 100% uniform on the planchet, brooch, pin, locking mechanism, and contact/solder points. 

[bulldog06]

It is hard to be certain about Black Widow NCs without having it in hand to compare the finish to known good ones, and to measure dimensions.

 

As mentioned before, the ribbon is a later narrower addition, 1 3/8" rather than the original 1 1/2".

 

The brooch looks correct for a BW. BW brooches are 1/16" longer than other US Mint brooches.

 

The ring is curious. I don't recall seeing a BW with a soldered then darkened ring.

 

I didn't see this one on ebay or I might have taken a chance. BWs are going for several times $400.

 

Mike

[AirMechanic]

Just given this sellers previous track record, I still have my doubts about this medal. It seems rather obvious that the medal’s ribbon is not original. That in itself is not a definitive reason to discount the remainder of the medal, but it does show that it has been altered. The solder on the suspension ring on the other hand looks pretty sloppy and raises a red flag to me.

 

I would think that if someone were to endeavor to fake a Navy Cross medal, they would go for an expensive version (WWI split brooch NC or a WWII Black Widow). This seller has sold 5 “WWII or earlier type” Navy Crosses on eBay (that I know of) in the past 2 years, with some of them appearing to be WWI split brooch versions of unknown authenticity. Either this seller has a lot of hard to find Navy Crosses that he is willing to unload or something else is going on.

 

He also seems to pair his higher end questionable medals with put together groups or other cheaper period medals to add value and credibility. The auction with this Navy Cross didn’t have a description (which seems a bit suspicious), so there was no explanation about the relation of the WWII Navy Expert Rifleman Medal sold with it.

 

I almost think that the real reason that the WWII Navy Expert Rifleman Medal is included in the lot (unless were are to believe that they were found together) is to show a potential eBay bidder that the Navy Cross does have the correct style of US mint navy wrap brooch (aside from the finish).
 

There are several side by side photos of the brooches of both medals showing the distinctive characteristics of the brooches. Other than showing that they have the same brooch, the photos also seems to emphasize to me the considerable wear of the Navy Expert Rifleman Medal that contrasts with the fresh ribbon and unblemished finish of the wrap brooch and pendant of the Navy Cross.

 

If we are to think that these were found together (which was not discussed in the auction), it seems a bit odd that one medal would be considerably worn and the other looks rather pristine. Also, if we are to think that the Navy Cross is real and just had its ribbon replaced (which was also not discussed in the auction), how did that happen? Did the ribbon just wear away while the brooch and pendant remained fairly pristine? It just seems unlikely.

 

With all the above said, it seems plausible to me that this medal has an original WWII US mint navy wrap brooch with a post-war pendant and ribbon. The finish of the brooch, pendant, and suspension ring were then altered with a chemical process or treatment (like those readily available in gunsmithing or jewelry making) to make it appear as an expensive and rare WWII Black Widow Navy Cross. 

 

 

[devildog34]

I'm sure everyone here has made the connection but this is the seller's other handy work.  Lots of similarities the soldered suspension ring etc.  Plus that fact that the REAL DSC in the below auction belongs to a well-known forum member.  This was of course already discussed but just to show you a little of the track record not trying to bring up an already exhausted story or post.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325179214699?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Daefc0bf343174fcdb37bf17ec0de359c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D134104549457%26itm%3D325179214699%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A493b2974-d069-11ec-8f7a-a6b7315cd3be|parentrq%3Aae43bad31800a9d9636a6b19fffeb7ca|iid%3A14

[Fromthepastcollections]

I had actually placed a bid on this group only up to the 400 mark and it was sniped last minute. but discussing it with a few other members we all collectively came to the same conclusions it was no good. A few reasons previously mentioned being the sellers reputation being that of a questionable variety and doing comparisons of a legitimate BW vs. the one that was being sold the center disc with the sailing ship was not as finely detailed or rather lacked detail of an original.