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Which ribbon is this?


mithridate
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mithridate

 

A picture of my uncle sometime between Basic/MOS trng/staging and getting on the boat for Vietnam in Oct or Nov of '65.

 

 

I can't quite recognize which ribbon that is above what I imagine is the Rifle Sharpshooter badge.

 

Any and all insights appreciated. Thank you in advance!

 

 

 

Csaba.jpg.a8f49c81b9b117d85fdb38fc67e16a79.jpg

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Woodymyster

Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal?  I dont know if that makes sense if the pic was taken before his first assignment.

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mithridate

Thank you both for the response!

 

I thought about the AFEM, but couldn't quite understand why he'd be wearing that prior to shipping out. Was that common back in '65? (I ask because today, in the AF, you'd only receive it once you're back home.)

 

If it is the AFEM, would a Marine have automatically "traded" that medal for the Vietnam Service Medal later?

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It has to be a National Defense ribbon.   Automatic award in the era of that photo. Couldn’t have any other ribbon without also having that one.  The lighting is throwing off the color shades.  

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mithridate

Thanks for the response, KurtA!

 

I love trying to figure these sorts of things out. The NDSM would normally fit, both in terms of automatic and in terms of having it be the first awarded, and therefore not being able to have another award (such as the AFEM) without it. In terms of colors, I have no idea about shading/fading/distortion, but the alternating pattern (sort of like a "bar code") looks closer to an AFEM than an NDSM.

 

The original EO 10448 (Apr 22, 1953) capped the award at one per person, from June 27, 1950 to "a terminal date to be fixed" by SecDef -- presumably till the close of the Korean War. EO 11265 (Jan 11, 1966) lifted the cap, and updated the award periods: one to close out the Korean War (Jul 27, 1954), and one to open up the Vietnam War era (Jan 1, 1961). An inter-war DoDI (or whatever it was called back then) may actually have delimiting dates, or explicit extension into the Vietnam era. If that's the case, all EO 11265 would have done is catch up with what the services were already doing. I'll have to research Awards DoDI's between 1953 and 1966 to answer: was an NDSM automatic when the picture was taken (Oct/Nov 1965)? Unless someone here already knows.

 

Another thought: is it possible that the AFEM was semi-officially endorsed for wear while on liberty? Say, in order to reinforce pride in imminently deploying servicemembers. We see this sort of "wear in advance" attitude with GWOT-S nowadays. Hopefully someone who knows the era well reads this post.

 

EO 10448 (Apr 22, 1953) - https://archives.federalregister.gov/issue_slice/1953/4/24/2391-2412.pdf#page=1

EO 11265 (Jan 11, 1966) - https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/executive-order-11265-amending-executive-order-no-10448-establishing-the-national-defense

 

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It's not an NDSM. It's the AFEM.


Could be that he's wearing the wrong ribbon, but the colors are clearly in line with an AFEM, not an NDSM.

 

 

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From my personal ribbons...compare the two, side by side with the original photo. 

IMG_1039.jpg

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Dave is 100% CORRECT on his ID of the medal. The National Defense Medal was not authorized for the Vietnam period until 1966 when it was retroactively awarded back to 1961. The marine in the photo in 1965 would not have been eligible for the award of the NDSM unless he had earned one during the Korean War.

 

Allan

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mithridate

 

Thanks all for the research and input! I'm on board with it being an AFEM.

 

What I can't quite understand is why a Marine, who is about to ship out to VN in Oct/Nov '65, would wear an AFEM. Keeping in mind that the VSM was authorized Jul 8, 1965, so the expectation would be that he'd be authorized to wear the VSM upon return, and therefore not be eligible for the AFEM.

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15 minutes ago, mithridate said:

 

Thanks all for the research and input! I'm on board with it being an AFEM.

 

What I can't quite understand is why a Marine, who is about to ship out to VN in Oct/Nov '65, would wear an AFEM. Keeping in mind that the VSM was authorized Jul 8, 1965, so the expectation would be that he'd be authorized to wear the VSM upon return, and therefore not be eligible for the AFEM.

He probably shipped to VN and received the AFEM. It wasn't until late 1965 that the Vietnam Service Medal would have been awarded. My understanding is that soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines who were issued the AFEM for VN service had the option of keeping the AFEM or trading it for the VSM. They were not allowed to wear both.

 

Allan

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mithridate
2 minutes ago, Allan H. said:

[...] It wasn't until late 1965 that the Vietnam Service Medal would have been awarded.

 

Thank you! That would support my working theory of being encouraged to wear that ribbon while on liberty, fresh from MOS training/immediately, and prior to shipping out in Oct/Nov '65.

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I would think that he would not have been encouraged to wear a ribbon that he was not authorized to wear prior to shipping out. Perhaps the photo was taken a little later than previously believed and he was wearing the uniform in Vietnam?

 

Allan

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On 7/11/2022 at 2:26 AM, Allan H. said:

I would think that he would not have been encouraged to wear a ribbon that he was not authorized to wear prior to shipping out. Perhaps the photo was taken a little later than previously believed and he was wearing the uniform in Vietnam?

 

Allan

 

The photo is definitely prior to shipping out. Alas, it could be as simple as a misunderstanding as it happens all the time. Req'd his 214, so I'll get to see what the records have to say.

 

Thank you all for giving it your attention and thoughts!

 

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If he wasn't such a newly trained Boot with the dates and service chronology given, the medal then could of been awarded for the DOM REP,  quite a few units of Marines from the 2nd Mar Div from Lejeune were in on it, the 6th MEU for one, 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thank you all for contributing your time and effort. I recently got a hold of my uncle's service record, so I have actual dates now. Unfortunately, the information doesn't clarify things. I'll continue down the rabbit hole in another thread though.

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He could have received the AFEM for service in the Dominican Republic in 1965 - I knew 2 Marines who received it for Operation Powerpack

 

Bill

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Enlisted in Apr '65, and pic is from September 1965 (high degree of confidence since it's after boot camp, but before leaving the US for the last time).

 

Dates

12-18 Apr 65 -- enlisted USMCR

19 Apr 65 - 10 May 66 -- USMC

 

2 Oct 65 -- embarked San Diego

17 Oct 65 -- disembarked Naha, Okinawa

12 Jan 66 -- embarked White Beach, Okinawa

17 Feb 66 -- disembarked Chu Lai RVN

1st Marine Division, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines

10 May 66 -- KIA

 

 

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