Survival/Parachute Knife, Aviator, Question Regarding Handle Splitting

[frank2far]

Here is my dad's issued survival/parachute knife. Last year I pulled it out and noticed it had a small corrosion spot with a smaller crack. I placed in into a plastic zip-lock type bad (incase there was something inside the pocket) and placed it back. Wen it was originally placed back into the pocket, the nylon string was wrapped around the handle.

 

Today I got it back out after several month and noticed the inside of the plastic bag had orange/red residue from the knife handle and the split had grown. It is as if it "melted". I put a Q-tip amount of water on the area to try to neutralize any chemical on it. 

 

Thoughts and suggestions?

 

By the way, yes, that is his rig from the the early 1960's

[9th Infantry Manchu]

Sorry to hear about his knife, some folks here might have insight into the problem but I have to say it must be super cool to have something like that from your Dad!!! His photo wearing it adds to set congrats!

[Charlie Flick]

Frank:

 

I have owned and examined a number of the Camillus made MC-1 blades over the years.  I have to say that in all of those years I have never seen a condition similar to what you are showing in your photos.  As to a cause my guess would be that some chemical in the yellow pouch or elsewhere has negatively reacted with the plastic scales and damaged them.  A thorough cleaning might stop further deterioration.

 

Your Dad's flight suit and rig are most impressive.  What kind of military flying did he do?

 

Regards,

Charlie

[frank2far]

3 minutes ago, Charlie Flick said:

Frank:

 

I have owned and examined a number of the Camillus made MC-1 blades over the years.  I have to say that in all of those years I have never seen a condition similar to what you are showing in your photos.  As to a cause my guess would be that some chemical in the yellow pouch or elsewhere has negatively reacted with the plastic scales and damaged them.  A thorough cleaning might stop further deterioration.

 

Your Dad's flight suit and rig are most impressive.  What kind of military flying did he do?

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

Thanks, Charlie. I am frustrated to say the least.

 

He was a naval aviator from 1951 to 1971. He flew another 20 years with Eastern Airlines, I believe he had around around 14-15,000 hours.  AD Skyraider, F2H2, FJ-4 Fury, F-8 Crusader and a host of others.

 

Here is a link to some of his flying in the 1950's and 60's the USNR.

 

 

[SKIPH]

frank2far- I have a Camillus MC-1 with a similar issue. It has the same type of discoloration, and the scales seemed to have shrunk over the years. Unlike yours, mine have not been stored in a rubber pouch. Also, I have 5 others by Camillus, Schrade, and Logan-Smyth, with no issues. There could  be some issue due to age with the plastic scales.  Who knows, can only speculate.  SKIP

[sactroop]

Really sorry to see this happening.  I'm used to seeing this shrinkage happen to some scales made from nitrocellulose.  Going back to pre-WW2 and into at least the 60's.  Sometimes I believe being stored in environments that can reach higher temperatures seems to contribute to some of these shrinkage issues, but I'm not sure it doesn't occur in other environments too.

[SKIPH]

Based upon frank2far's knife, and knowing his Dad had the MC-1 early on, I will guess mine was made around the same time frame, with the scales being of the same composition.  Since all my others are stored exactly the same in my safe, I will chalk up the scale issue to early production. Have had that one since 1996, and it seems to be slowly deteriorating. SKIP

[frank2far]

Skip, yes, yours looks exactly like mine and in the same area. I thought maybe it might be something like gun oil or solvent, maybe even oils from hands. But, I am leaning towards the type of material used on these early ones.

[SolWarrior]

Sactroop is right. It seems to be deteriorating much like the old celluloid or old type plastics on some vintage pocket knives. That reaction on celluloid handles is called out gassing. This reaction not only deteriorates the handles, but the entire knife, as the out gassing will severely corrode all metal parts - pins, blades, bolsters, etc., and any other knives stored with this Camillus paratrooper knife as well. However, this deterioration process might not be as aggressive.

 

I'd keep a close watch on your dad's knife from now on, and if you see any damage spreading to the blades, etc., I would seriously consider removing the orange handles as a last resort to save your dad's knife.  You can always replace the handles with similar orange covers that won't out gas.

 

One other thing worth pointing out about your dad's knife -  Your dad's knife has a Camillus stamp that indicates its manufactured date from 1946-1950. This period was a very special one for Camillus cutlery. They made some of their best pocket knives with blades that hardly ever wobbled, unless very badly mistreated. I don't know if the paratrooper knives were the same but, all others had very snappy blades that to this day most all still retain that gator like snap. - Good luck!

 

PS - I can't see SKIPH's knife stamp so not sure if it's from the same period.

[SKIPH]

SolWarrior- Interesting info. Here's a photo of the Camillus stamp. Looks like the one in frank2far's. you're on to something.  SKIP

[SolWarrior]

SKIPH, you got yourself one manufactured during the 1946-1950 period as well. 👍 This particular stamp is called the Camillus short-line stamp, as the line underneath "CAMILLUS" only fully covers the "MILL" in CAMILLUS. Are the blades tight and snappy?

 

Just to be safe, I'd store this knife separate from the rest, outside your safe, as out gassing can destroy everything in sight.

[SKIPH]

SolWarrior- The blade has great snap, but wiggles. Appreciate the info on storage, will separate out of the safe. SKIP

[Misfit 45]

Hi Folks,

This is interesting.  I never knew these early MC-1 knives could have deteriorating handles.  I bought a "short line" Camillus MC-1 that has NO scales.  I noticed the short line, but did not know what to make of it.  The lack of scales may be an indication that the scales deteriorated so badly that they either came off or were taken off. 

 

I don't know much about Camillus history as to their markings, but the 1949-1950 dates as given by SolWarrior seem out of place.  The MC-1 Aircrew knife wasn't adopted until 1957.  Maybe Camillus had a stockpile of older blades from other pocket knives that they were able to use on the early MC-1s.

Marv

[frank2far]

Mine snaps out strong, virtually no wobble. Metal is near perfect. 

 

I went back an took a photo of the bag and the pocket on the Torso Harness.  The spot where the red arrow is feels "wet" and is softer. This spot has been on the pocket for a few years, I just never gave it much thought. 

 

The plastic bag contained the knife for the past several month and has residue from the handle.

 

[SKIPH]

Marv- I agree with the 1957 date. Did some research after I got off the computer, and I read an article that Frank Trzaska had written in the compilation book. Not disputing SolWarrior's info, but just have not come across the 1946-1950 dates as of yet. To my knowledge in that time frame the M2 from WW2 was still being used. If you could SolWarrior, please let us know the reference you found this in. The info you passed on the "out gassing" is priceless, we want to know more. Appreciate everything.  SKIP

[kaotikross]

they sell acid free bags at comic book stores.

[sactroop]

I believe the 1946 to 1950 dates have previously been associated with that specific tang stamp.  Myself I'm always at least a little reserved when it comes to dating tang stamps by themselves.  Seems like there is often more to the story.

I've run across the subject of (out gassing) in the past especially when the subject involves synthetics.  I won't pretend to think I fully understand that subject  enough to even make suggestions.

I'm just sorry that frank2far is having this problem.  I've had different problems with similar consequences.

 

[ccyooper]

wow, at first I thought maybe he got some deet on it from the early bug dope we used to get that I think was about 95%.  I had a jack knife that it slowly gummed up and dissolved the handle (but not the liquid residue like in the bag..  But with skips knife having the same problem I expect its just the material itself.  The liquid remnants in the bag is weird stuff.   

[SKIPH]

FWIW- I have kept all my MC-1s in small,  separate zip lock bags for 20 years. The short line Camillus is the only one that has deteriorated. But, I still moved it out of the safe per SolWarrior's advice.  SKIP

[SolWarrior]

Hello,

 

I don't know much about the MC-1 knives, accept that they were made by Camillus, Schrade-Walden and possibly other cutleries. I've never owned one either but, I did search for their date of origin and they do appear to have been introduced at or about 1957. It is very likely that the main blades were Camillus stockpile as the ricasso stamp is undeniably from the 1946-1950 era. With that, the MC-1s were likely put together some time after that period. One thing to consider is the MC-1 blades do not have a nail pull because they are automatic. Camillus did make similar, same size and shape clip blades like that of the MC-1, like the Camillus Barlow for one but all those have either a long pull or a nail pull on their blades.

 

As for out gassing, some pocket knife collectors say it's an acid (nitric or sulfuric) that is released by celluloid but who knows for sure. I worked with many acids and chemicals in electroplating & Dalic process (brush plating) with the government and could tell by the smell if exposed to different types of acids that are reacting. Except for Delrin handles and Bakelite parts, I always avoided celluloid and other man-made materials on knives. I prefer bone or leather handles.

 

Here's something I found on it online:

 

                                                                                       Trouble With Celluloid

                                                                     By Prof. Roland Phlip

 

Celluloid is a man-made material that was commonly used for knife handles in the early 1900s.

Celluloid often looks like modern plastic. It can be made clear, many different colors, or even have swirled patterns in it. It can be made opaque, translucent, or transparent. It can even be made to resemble ivory or mother of pearl. Occationally, bits of metal or other materials are suspended in it for extra decoration.

Unfortunately, celluloid is fatally flawed. It is chemically unstable. It shrinks with age and it breaks down over time, especially with heat, and UV light exposure (such as sun light). When celluloid breaks down, it discolors, cracks, and eventually crumbles. Worse than that, though, it releases very corrosive gases which can rust the blade of the knife in question or any knives stored nearby. These gases are quite powerful. In a closed container full of knives, one bad apple can really spoil the whole bunch.

Here at The Institute for Advanced Balisong Studies, most of our extensive balisong collection is kept in bank deposit boxes, small, very closed containers, so, we have very few with celluloid handles. Since knives with celluloid handles would be almost certainly from the early 1900s, very old for a balisong, one of our major collecting goals, this has caused us to turn down some really great pieces.

The exact chemical process of celluloid's breakdown is not well understood. There is considerable debate about what causes it and what types of celluloid are more likely to undergo such deterioration. In this day and age of engineered plastics, celluloid, which is expensive, difficult to work with, also quite flamable, is hardly used anymore. So, the breakdown of celluloid isn't the sort of thing that the government awards huge grants to study.

Nobody has made celluloid material in the US for at least fifty years. There's still one factory making it in small quantities in Germany. A few knife makers still use it.

Celluloid is highly flamable and celluloid dust is highly explosive. So, very few knife manufacturers or custom makers use what little celluloid is still being made.

While UV light such as sun light and heat are both thought to accellerate celluloid's decomposition process, they are not necessary. Keeping celluloid-handled knives in dark and/or cold places is no guarantee that they won't deteriorate. Storing them in an inert atmosphere might help, but that's complicated and expensive and best left to museums.

You can read all about celluloid's problems in this most excellent article from the Oregon Knife Collector's Association Knewletter.

 

Consider, also, the following post that appeared recently in the Usenet newsgroup rec.knives with the subject "Fighting Rooster Celluloid Knives, Rust Time Bombs!"

"Mike W." wrote:

I opened a knife roll that has sat in the top of a closet for about 4
years, WOW. I couldn't believe how quickley the Fighting Rooster
celluloid knives had turned into so much useless garbage. I can't
imagine how I would have felt if I'd had these placed with my old
Remingtons, or Case Tested knives, I'd be wanting to hang someone.

Celluloid handles often deteriorate very quickly and with no warning. It's not uncommon to hear collectors say, "I've had those knives for decades and they've been perfectly stable. I looked at those knives less than a year ago and they were fine. But, when I looked the other day, the celluloid was crumbling and the blades and liners were hopelessly rusted." The fact that a piece of celluloid is in perfect condition and has been stable for decades is no guarantee that it won't go bad any day now.

It's also common to hear of whole collections going bad at the same time. Apparently, the gas emitted from the first one can trigger and accelerate the process in the others.

If you have any knives or other items (celluloid was also common on custume jewlery, pens, and other decorative objects of the same era) with celluloid, I urge you to keep them separate from the rest of your collection and not to store them in closed containers.

Here at The Institute for Advanced Balisong Studies, we do not normally recommend making any modifications to collectible knives. Just about anything you could do will lower the value of the knife. But, if you have collectible knives with celluloid handles or inserts, we do suggest having a qualified craftsman remove the celluloid and replace it with a modern material before the deterioration of the celluloid ruins the knife completely. The original celluloid pieces can be retained and stored elsewhere.

 

 

If you want to learn more, the best place to search for information on out gassing is to go to the best pocket knife source that I know of - allaboutpocketknives.com and type variations of celluloid out gassing and the damage it can do. 

 

Here are some photos I found of a couple of knives with celluloid covers out gassing early on. It can get much much worse than this.

 

[SolWarrior]

SKIPH,

 

To answer your question on where I first came across out gassing of celluloid knife handles, I cannot recall for sure. However, it could very likely have been at the allaboutpocketknives forums. Hope my previous reply helped with all other questions or concerns.

 

[SKIPH]

SolWarrior- great information on the "Trouble with Cellulloid". Good, informative read. Also appreciate the updated data on the Camillus blades from 1946-1950. Want to thank you again for teaching me about the need to separate the deteriorating MC-1 from my others. We all learned from your input.  Thank you!  SKIP

[frank2far]

SolWarrior, great information and thank you for providing this information. This may help other collectors identify things in their collections and take appropriate corrective action.

 

SKIP, thanks for the prompting of the information.'

 

This may be a good threat to pin. If so, may want to add "out gassing" in the title. It may offer collectors some future heartache. 

 

 

[frank2far]

Since this post, nearly a year ago, I have let the pocket knife hang from the cord on the mannequin in the open. It was previously closed in the torso harness pouch and then in a plastic bag. It is interesting to note that the crack and shrinkage does not appear to have furthered since. There is no sticky/tacky feel to the handle since it was allowed to 

'breath' in the open. Just an observation on this knife. I hope this helps. 

[SKIPH]

FWIW- Mine has no changes either.  SKIP