Just happened across the exact same WW2 KIA PHM that I have ?

[dpast32]

Hello Guys, I'm not at all sure as to where this Query belongs, but I guess here as good as anywhere ? Back on 10-24-2020, I purchased here on the USMF a nice KIA Heart, & grabbed it because it was to my primary collecting field, anything Rhode Island related. ( Re: PFC Arthur J. Gamelin, ASN 31384181 / PHM # 357680, of Bristol, RI. KIA in Italy, 03-01-1944. ) Everything appeared fine, & for all I know may still be fine, yet I do harbor some concern. I was browsing over Scott Kraska's  latest list update ( 'Bay State Militaria' ) & low & behold, there's 'my' PHM ?? Same description, same individual, an 'exact same example' ! So naturally, my question is, how, or why did this duplicity occur, although we all know that similar things have happened due to certain circumstances. Can anyone here assist me in determining 'what' is going on with these 2 exact pieces ? I haven't contacted Scott yet, just in an attempt at learning where he obtained his example, & I'm not certain he would be willing to even divulge such information ? Any comments, ideas & or advice will be very much appreciated !! THANKS Guys

 

           Best regards,   Dom P.

[dhcoleterracina]

Dom,  I've seen duplicate PH medals before. If the parents were divorced then two were issued. Can you post your medal? 

[stratasfan]

Any pictures of your medal? That might help some of the PH collectors, too! Does seem like an interesting thing to explore. Could one be a re-issue? (I think I'm going to move this to the Medals board, as I think you'll get some better thoughts from Medal collectors there!

[Airborne-Hunter]

Please post a side by side. I am confused if its simply the same name or the exact same individual or the exact same group with the same items...

[dpast32]

THANKS Folks for chiming in, I appreciate it. I'll have to dig it out & get some photos up. I will say though, based upon my comparison of both medals side by side, they could have very well been done by the same engraver !! ( By ' side by side', I'm referring to comparing my color print outs from the Forum post when I purchased it, & from Scott's current photos off his site ) I've only been able to investigate it briefly so far, as I've tied up at my Grandaughter's Softball games, one after another ! Tomorrow however, I'll be able to delve right into it. Plus, I can't recall if my example was numbered or not, as is the for sale one ? I did manage to go through the IDPF quickly, & it looks like the Father passed away during the paperwork process with the Government, but I need to verify exactly when he died. It could of course possibly be a replacement for a missing original, yet the naming is extremely similar ? Hopefully once I managed to get some photos up we can attempt to solve this very concerning dilemma. THANK YOU My Friends !!

 

              Dom

[dpast32]

I have copied the for sale example for my future reference, but can't find any of the scans I made off our Forum when I purchased it back on 24 October 2020. I do have the printed out photos from the Forum, & have used them to compare side by side, per se'. First, the recipient is the exact same individual in both cases, that I can confirm. The 'new' example is numbered, I need to determine if mine is or isn't ? I never need to locate mine, & confirm if #'d, & take a couple of photos of its engraving for everyone here to view if they wish. 'Hopefully', it's simply an official duplicate award, although not unknown, I still remain somewhat concerned if you know what I mean. I know exactly from whom I purchased it, & have all my purchase package as I usually do when acquiring a new medal. But, until I've looked into the matter, I'm not even mentioning the original seller, as right now, we don't really know if there is anything amiss, or not ? Can't post photos tonight, but will do so tomorrow morning for sure.

 

                 Best,     Dom

[dpast32]

Good Morning Everyone,  Here's a few scans of the 'new, for sale' duplicate PH I came across yesterday. In a few minutes, I'll take some photos of my example, & then hopefully, someone here may be able to make some sense out of this issue ? Also, I wish to again THANK EVERYONE for their very kind assistance, it's very much appreciated !! Please stay tuned,

 

           Best,    Dom P.

 

 

                @>>>  END Of SCANS

[dpast32]

OK Folks,  Herewith are the scans of 'my' Arthur J. Gamelin KIA PHM. Be advised that it is not numbered, so presumably it could, or perhaps not be an later production run ? To me, the engraving on 'my' example appears to be somewhat more precise, or should I say neater, if that's even relevant. Soooo, there you are, I will naturally appreciate ANY comments, & or remarks anyone may wish to share, as I'm still a little concerned with this, yet I can't say exactly why ? THANK YOU MUCH !!!

 

               Dom P.  /  'dpast32

 

 

 

 

 @>>> END Of SCANS

 

 

[Willy1690]

The last one is a one looker. The first one looks suspect and not done real well but taking a look around at some in other collections, some don't look all that good either. Usually Army /AAC ones. 

[Willy1690]

2 minutes ago, Willy1690 said:

The last one is a one looker. The first one looks suspect and not done real well but taking a look around at some in other collections, some don't look all that good either. Usually Army /AAC ones. 

Also, where the engraver starts and stops while engraving the letters, doesn't look like period engraving either. 

[stratasfan]

I'm going to tag @Dave so that he might be able to chime in on the engraving. From the pics of both, it seems to me that your medal has much darker engraving. But, I'm far from expert in this. :) Being as one is numbered and one is not, I would wonder if it was a re-issue replacement? Perhaps the original one was lost for a short time, or someone else took/got it and the family didn't know where it was? Heard both kinds of stories. 

[stratasfan]

Also . . . any way to double-check the number and see if that matches the name?

[manayunkman]

Did both of these medals come with the paper with the flag on it?

 

 

[dpast32]

Yes, if you're referring to the small Business Card with the individual's information on it. What's also concerning is the fact the 'both' Hearts appear to have increased such a Card. Mine certainly did, & it's the one I included with my above Scans. ( I'm still trying to determine why they both included thesevCards, & the handvwriting is extremely simimlar ? ) And yes, I too noticed the slightly less precise engraving on the 'currently For Sale' Heart, as opposed to mine, which appears to have been noted by a few other Folks here ?  ( Re: From 'Top' to Bottom' in the above Post, my example is the last set of scans to have been posted. The example directly above mine is the 'suspect' Heart, for lack of a better description. And yes, the individual is an exact match, same ASN, Town of Record, Death Date, Unit, etc, etc. ) 

Right now, I'm going through his IDPF, attempting to determine if there is in fact baby cause for the issuance of another, 'Replacement Award' ? I do have to say, although issues such as this have, & will continue to happen, yet in my experience, they remain extremely uncommon. As the 'plot' thickens !! THANKS FOLKS

 

                    Dom 

[stratasfan]

I hadn't noticed the paper being the same until Peter mentioned it, but I've looked at both side-by-side and it is the same design on the paper and I'd say the same handwriting. Very odd! Wonder if Bay State got it from the same place you got yours? Or they could have come from the same place a few years ago. Boy . . . quite a mystery!

[dpast32]

You know, I thought the very same thing. Perhaps the original seller owned them both, & he just happened to sell off 'mine' first ? Honestly though, if that indeed is the true scenario, then I really wish he had mentioned that there was a duplicate in play, & he was also the owner of it ? The seller is one of our own, so to speak, & has sold a few nice PHM's here relatively recently. Like I said before, 'maybe' there isn't an issue to begin with, but for some reason or other, I tend to feel uneasy about the whole situation. If I did possess firm, definite proof of anything wrong, I would be contacting the seller to discuss the matter, but as of right now, I honestly can't say either way. Perhaps it is an legitimate 2nd Award, sent out to replace a missing medal, or as someone said, maybe the 'other' parent requested one ?  HOPEFULLY, someone here might recall having come across either of these sometime in the past, & will kindly chime in with their information. At this point, I'll be interested in hearing any thoughts, speculation or anything which might solve this troubling riddle !! THANK YOU Folks,

 

             Dom

[stratasfan]

The seller with the paper also might have had them at different times. When you bought yours, perhaps the other was gone or he hadn't gotten that one. Might not have been at the same time, necessarily. 

 

Is there a way to look up PH numbers?  

[Jim T]

Dom:

   

    I can't address the duplicity issue but I would throw away the packing material (if you had doubts as to the authenticity of the engraving on your medal): I too have an unnumbered PH to a KIA  (January 13, 1944, on the push thru Cervaro to Cassino).  The engraver's  hand is equally strong and the letters in common (small capitals "E" & "R", which are pretty stylized, and the capital "J") match exactly what you've got; they were in my estimation done by the same person.

    My medal came out of the woodwork via a coin shop - very probably a walk in -  50+ years ago before it made sense to fake these. My point is: I believe your medal is not a hose-job....I have no doubt that you have an officially engraved posthumous medal.

 

   Enjoy your piece of history without reservation.

 

 Jim T

 

[dpast32]

As far as PH # look ups, well it can & does occur, but it remains very limited in its scope, & IIRC, is usually only possible with very early WW2 issue Hearts. Kurt Stauffer & probably a few other 'advanced' collectors could probably tell us more. But, from experience, I wouldn't expect any PH with an KIA date to researchable via the number.

Good idea though !

 

           Dom

[dpast32]

Well, I do have to say, I'm seriously beginning to feel somewhat better about the situation, based both on some of the Replies I've received here, & another fact of which I just became aware. Now this either may, or may not have any relevance here, yet it does offer an plausible reason for another, duplicate example being in circulation. Apparently, the Gamelin Family of Bristol, Rhode Island was a large one, with all of their children being born in an relatively short period of time. Just maybe, one of them wished their own PHM to honor their now departed Brother ? It is at this point simply speculation, yet it is indeed plausible ? The siblings, along with their bithdates were as follows; John 1910, Arthur 1912, Helen 1913, George 1915, & Beatrice 1920. ( Arthur, the 2nd born was the KIA. ) Of course without an extensive family background investigation, I can't prove anything, yet it is another reason for the existence of another medal ? Can anyone here tell me why I had to check Bay State's list update yesterday !!!!! ( Just kidding, of course ) THANKS

 

               Dom P.

[stratasfan]

Siblings would be a good point . . . perhaps a sibling took one and then a parent got a replacement? 

[dpast32]

And, it's presumable that the Government would only authorize one more to for the Family, if that ? It's possible perhaps the either the slightly older Brother received it, or maybe the eldest Sister ? But, of course this is still speculation, right ? I'm still hopeful that someone here might recall something about noting two being in existence, yet like some have pointed out, the one up for sale now doesn't appear to been engraved as precisely as my example, for whatever reason. And, the 'investigation' continues !! Hey, this is almost like what I've done all my life, so it just comes naturally. THANKS

 

                 Dom

[tarbridge]

Hi All,

The cards and handwriting both belong to me...the medals must have come through my hands at one time(never together).

I had sold the one Dom did not own several years back and just traded back for it. Both of the medals are officially engraved by the US Government. There are many reasons for multiple issues. It is not common but has been done as to the whims of whomever handled it. Divorced Parents and other family at times received them.The possibility of lost...missing or damaged also comes to play.

I have owned quite a few Doubled groups.

Regards Robert 

[kcmo]

I've seen several groups with more than one offically engraved purple hearts.  This is an old one I had at one time that I'm only guessing the issue to the one purple heart that someone requested another.  Seen a USN pair and have one group now that is missing one of the two engraved medals from the group. 

 

 

[dpast32]

THANK YOU Robert, along with everyone else who so very kindly assisted me in learning about this issue, I truly do appreciate it !! I knew deep down that there had to be some plausible explanation, & I figured that here on our Forum would be the ideal place to find out. As we have all learned here over the years, by having so motor us collectors & researchers together on one venue, it makes learning about our hobby, & solving your issues so much easier & more enjoyable !! THANKS AGAIN

 

              Best regards,    Dom Pastore Jr.  /  'dpast32'