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Re-issued M2 helmet with red paint.


ShibaLegend
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ShibaLegend

I recently learned that what i thought was a helmet with theater repaired bails is actually a M-2 paratrooper helmet. Clearly re-issued since the liner is not a paratrooper liner and the red navy paint on the helmet itself. Scored this for 10$

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ShibaLegend
3 hours ago, dmar836 said:

Any close ups of the bails and heat stamp?

Heat stamp is unintelligible, but here are the bails.

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Well, you didnt go wrong for 10$. I am curious if the 555  ever used red painted helmets for "Smoke Jumping" operations or training.

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USMC_COLLECTOR

I believe the red m1s were used by the navy

53 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Well, you didnt go wrong for 10$. I am curious if the 555  ever used red painted helmets for "Smoke Jumping" operations or training.

 

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40 minutes ago, phil b said:

possible reissue to navy fire control

Yes, ofcourse. A possibility that initially occurred to me. However, remebering the treatment shipboard helmets recieved I would be suprised that even one "D" bail would survive....much less both. They werent known for their sturdiness to begin with. But again, its as good a possibilty as any.

👍

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twthmoses

Looks better than normal, but still thinks it is a M2 reproduction. Looks like loops are made of carbon steel, which is a plus. Loop feet does not look spot on, too straight, should be curvier. Shell does not seem to have dimples. All McCord shells from lot 25-622 have dimples. M2 would be around the lot 188-236 range, so they should have dimples. Could be very weak dimples. Better photos would clear that up. Close up from the inside and outside between the loops, both of them.

For better evaluation, could you try measuring the distance between the loop feet from outside to outside? Take photos of the lot stamp, regardless if it is readable or not. More eyes always looks better. Close up at different angles, with water, maybe chalk. Someone can always see something of the number. Images of both loops sharp and close up.

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ShibaLegend

Heat stamp. Literally the only thing i can make out is 8 and c. 

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Goosenheimer

Here are two red helmets I saved from destruction during the transition from M-1 to kevlar helmets in about 1988-1989 from my old Army Reserve unit - 461st Engineer Company.  These two were used as range safety helmets - one is the Range Officer helmet, the other was worn by range line safety NCOs.  

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On 6/21/2022 at 2:20 PM, twthmoses said:

1) ...still think it is a M2 reproduction. Looks like loops are made of carbon steel, which is a plus. Loop feet does not look spot on, too straight, should be curvier.

 

2) Shell does not seem to have dimples. All McCord shells from lot 25-622 have dimples. M2 would be around the lot 188-236 range, so they should have dimples. Could be very weak dimples...

 

3) For better evaluation, could you try measuring the distance between the loop feet from outside to outside? Take photos of the lot stamp, regardless if it is readable or not...

1) There is no "spot on" for M2's which is part of the reason why it is hard to always tell. And exactly what is "carbon"steel? All steel, including Hadfield Maganese and Stainless has carbon. BTW, this is in fact a legit M2 that got lucky and kept it's loops even after reissue to the navy or army or CD fire dept. or whoever painted it red. 

 

2) The actual range of "known" D-Loops is 102C to 232B. Are you sure ALL early M-1 and M-2's have dimples? For the record, this one does have dimples(*see picture below)

 

3) Here's the right distance on a D-loop. One side broken making it easy for me to measure. Most seem to be in the 35 to 36mm range.

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twthmoses
On 6/22/2022 at 2:54 AM, Goosenheimer said:

...and the range safety helmet

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Thanks for the images. Looks even better now. Seeing both loops, they look really good, and if it is a reproduction, it definitely is top-shelf work. Still have a hard time seeing those dimples, but there are images that suggest they are there. Probably weak ones. The lot stamp I cannot read, but I am sure I could be read if images was sharp enough and from different angles. A measurement between the loops, outside to outside of the feet would be nice.

 

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twthmoses
On 6/22/2022 at 5:01 PM, Bugme said:

1) There is no "spot on" for M2's which is part of the reason why it is hard to always tell. And exactly what is "carbon"steel? All steel, including Hadfield Maganese and Stainless has carbon. BTW, this is in fact a legit M2 that got lucky and kept it's loops even after reissue to the navy or army or CD fire dept. or whoever painted it red. 

 

2) The actual range of "known" D-Loops is 102C to 232B. Are you sure ALL early M-1 and M-2's have dimples? For the record, this one does have dimples(*see picture below)

 

3) Here's the right distance on a D-loop. One side broken making it easy for me to measure. Most seem to be in the 35 to 36mm range.

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Of course, there is spot on. If you got good-looking loops, like the above, with no obvious signs of fixes/changes and you got the supporting data, dimples, low carbon steel loops and lot range, I would call it spot on.

 

Low carbon steel (my bad should have read low carbon steel, not just carbon steel) is the metal – that is what they call it, C-loops are made of, as well as some later loops of the moveable loops type. On various lots in the about 1000-1300 range it is found more often than others. Especially lot range 1120-1215 it is very common. The other type is of course stainless steel. The hinges can also be found made of low carbon steel, but a lot less common. McCord jockey for a while trying to get the rim replaced with low carbon steel. They never where allowed to do this. However, they did get approval to do it for loops, and I imagine C-loops was the process for that. The spot weld between manganese steel and low carbon steel was never a problem on C-loops. It the thin transition between the feet and the start of the loop that is the weak point.

 

Not all M1 has dimples, only the lot range 25-622 (640). This include the M2 range. Later produces shells does not have dimples, e.g. lot 623-1300. Dimples comes from the production method, specific from holding the shells in place when spanking the rim in place. McCord changed the vice/holding method around mid-43, so it does not produce dimples anymore. Instead, it produces a slight depression on the outside between the loops. Can be very difficult to see or even feel, because of paint and texture. Btw, an excellent method of catching late drawn discs. Example I have a McCord lot 95D with second style fixed loops and no dimples but depressions, suggesting it was drawn much later than would be the case for a 95D shell.

 

As for the range of M2 shells. I understand there exist a few C-loops below lot 188, but I am sure they are late drawn discs. The majority lay in the 188-236 range, and they should. The spec drawing for M2 shells was made in June 1942. McCord was drawing lot 148 in June 1942. The spec drawing was not fully approved in July 1942. Give it say a month, maybe two, more, before shells actually left the plant at McCord, we will be around lot 188, exactly where you find the majority of C-loops shells.

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ShibaLegend
On 6/27/2022 at 5:19 AM, twthmoses said:

 

Thanks for the images. Looks even better now. Seeing both loops, they look really good, and if it is a reproduction, it definitely is top-shelf work. Still have a hard time seeing those dimples, but there are images that suggest they are there. Probably weak ones. The lot stamp I cannot read, but I am sure I could be read if images was sharp enough and from different angles. A measurement between the loops, outside to outside of the feet would be nice.

 

What exactly do you mean by dimples? Are they supposed to be on the rim of the helmet? Because if so, there are multiple dimples on the rim of the helmet. If they aren't supposed to be on the rim, where are they usually located?

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plumbob

Original factory paint on mine inside and out so never been messed with. dimple as can be seen. original airborne straps . As far as i am concerned this is 100% original.

I think the OP helmet is a lucky find well done.

 

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dmar836

Looking from the inside at the loops it is roughly in the center of the rim material within the loop area. If I squint, I can see it in two of your first pics. Could just be the patina. 

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ShibaLegend

Yeah they are clearly there. Sadly you might have to just take my word for it, they are on both sides, but arent clearly visible without running your finger over it.

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21 hours ago, ShibaLegend said:

Yeah they are clearly there. Sadly you might have to just take my word for it, they are on both sides, but arent clearly visible without running your finger over it.

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I can see them clearly, they even show up on the outside of the rim. Like I said before, completely legit. Good for you!!!

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