Are any of these WASP wings authentic?

[GAZOO]

25 minutes ago, dmar836 said:

Wow! Clearly a cast wing IMO. $1999? This is what happens when one wants more than one thinks. A basic amount of research would have tipped off a prudent buyer.

Well, "A fool and his money..."

Or better yet a Fool posing as an expert, I lay the blame on The seller as i suspect they knew OR should of known

[pfrost]

DId it sell for that or was that what it was offered for?  I couldn't tell.

 

[Bull Moose]

Says sold, found it while researching sold wing badges on eBay.

 

 

[pfrost]

Well, it must be correct if it sold for big $$ on ebay!  LOL.

 

The various WASP "class wings" were awarded to the ladies through 1943, and the Shield of Athena lozeng wing was awarded to classes graduating after that in 1944.  Because the WASP program ended in December of 1944 and I think only 3 or 4 classes of WASPs got those wings.  Since  the relatively short time period used, most of these wings will look almost pristine.  I am always worried about the fakes that look like they have been worn down... that is simply not the case for most WASP wings. 

 

Josten used a silver type frosting finish on many of their wings and often times (but not always) you will find remnants of this finish.  That is always a good sign, but sometimes the ladies would go ahead and polish their wings to a mirror finish. It can be a positive, but not, strictly speaking a negative.

 

There are a few very subtle "tells" that I have IDd on the fake and real WASP wings.  Mostly in the hallmark. Again, these are subtle and can be quibbled about as the strike of the hallmark was not always the same and so there may be variations introduced that way.   But in general...

 

This composite shows a fake next to a "real" deal insert.  There are 3 more obvious tells. A) The "J" in the fake Josten is more rounded (almost like a fish hook), while the "J" in the vintage wings shows a more square bottom profile (loot closely at the bottom of the J).  B) The E in Josten and the I in sterling are more in line with each other in the real ones, but the are offset to the right in the fakes.  There are some other very subtle alignments that are off but the E and I are the easiest ones to ID IMHO.  C) Then there is a sharper wing tip on the vintage wings that is rounded off in the fakes. 

 

Also, the O and R in the fakes are less refined than the O and R in the real deal (red arrows).

 

Sometimes the JOSTEN is lightly stamped and sometimes it is more heavy. This can make it hard to really be sure when comparing wings,  But in GENERAL, the JOSTEN mark is usually finer quality and sharper font than the ones that are faked.

 

Looking at the exact size of the wings will also help.  The quality of the front is going to be very high in the good ones, less so in the bad ones.

Best thing to do is handle or study as many wings as possible.

[Noelle]

On 6/20/2022 at 10:54 AM, B-17Guy said:

As stated, listen to Bob and Patrick, they are correct for the reasons stated.

The wings in the above posts are really bad. After a while you will get good enough to spot fakes pretty quick…good for you for asking here.

Another note on an airplane that is near and dear to me (I know I’m off wing topic here) the B-25 is not a widow maker. I believe your are thinking of the Martin B-26. It had the bad reputation.

The B-25 is rock solid (check out the new Wolf Hound movie for great B-25 air to air action).

Don’t give up on your instruction, the industry is desperately short of pilots.

As Dave said, communication with your instructor is key.

John

Correct, it was the B-26.  The women were still better. :D https://www.airforcemag.com/article/valor-the-wasps-of-world-war-ii/

 

I’m planning to talk to my CFI tomorrow.

[Noelle]

On 6/20/2022 at 4:54 PM, pfrost said:

B17 John once shared with me an old adage about the B26....  "It was nicknamed the Widow Maker, the Baltimore Whore, the Flying Prostitute (because it had no visible means of support), and One a Day in Tampa Bay, after 15 crashes in one 30-day period."  LOL

 

As for me being some sort of enlightened collector whose sage advice you should seek you.... just think of me as someone with lots of opinions and the inability to remain silent about them.... So don't confuse my proclivity for pompous pontification about wings for any great insight about wings.

 

As for the WASP wings, I believe that everyone can do a very good job of educating themselves about these items with many of the tools already available. There are a couple of fantastic books that show really good and clear examples of these wings--both the class wings and the "Lozenge" (In reality it is the Shield of Athena) wings.  Bob's site is excellent and there have been more than a few excellent threads on this forum.  Plenty of pictures to look at, both good and bad. Also, there are a couple or 3 true experts on the WASP wings on this forum (I am not one of them, I know almost nothing about WASPs).

That being said, because there were so few WASPS (about 1200 or so) and the great interest from collectors, I would think that just about every WASP and/or her family have been contacted by multiple collectors or historians seeking information and wings from these ladies...  The interest in WASPS is not new, and I have heard of people attending even the first few reunions of the WASPS seeking insignia, patches, etc. This means that for the most part, finding something WASP related that comes out of the woodwork is going to be almost impossible, and if you do see legit WASP stuff, it is probably coming out of established collections from serious advanced collectors or significant dealers.  They WILL know the value (and should expect to get that value) and so if the deal is too good to be true.... it probably is.

 

For the class wings, each of the classes had a jeweler made wing crafted from a specific cut down/modified USAAF wing badge that would have been common and easily available to the jewelers in the area.  In general (although there seemed to have some replication), each class used a unique base wing (be it a GEMSCO wing or a Juarez/Walter Lamp wing or a Bell wing).  So the back of those class wings will look exactly like the back of the regular base wing... no tricks there--the jeweler just cut them down and added the shield with the class inforamtion.  The only thing that would be unique to the base wing would be the specifics of how the jeweler cut down the wing.  But on the other hand, the specifics of the class information on the shield is what is going to be important.  There are LOTS of photos of good wings online, and if I was a betting man, I would expect that fakers are making pretty good reproductions of those right now.  Bob put his finger on it, the specifics of those Class Shields are where the true "tells" are.  Again, if it is too good to be true... it probably is.

 

But putting together what is already known about which class was made with which base wing and how the class information was added to that wing (font, size, punctuation, etc), you could be about as expert as most people--outside of those few collectors who have a wing with provenance or actually talked to a living WASP whilst drinking tea and looking through her memoribilia.

 

The Shield of Athena wings (AKA Lozenge wings)...  I think it is fair to say that there is ONLY 1 type.  Made by Josten and always in clutchback.  Having handled a few and seen pictures of more, they are pretty distinct and while the fakes can be good, often not as good as you would think.  These wings seem to show up a bit more frequently, and I got on out of the wood work that had been converted to a bracelet.  Not as difficult to find as the class wings, it is still a hard bird to locate.  And you should expect to pay a good price for one, IF you are getting it from an established collection, auction house, or dealer.  That being said, the FAKES of this wings are legion.  Fakes to confuse, fakes to "fill up a slot with a museum quality reproduction", fantasy pieces, reunion pieces, etc and et all.  But make your life easy and just assume... If its NOT a Josten and if it ISN'T clutch back, its 100% fake (no exceptions!!).  That being said, if it IS marked Josten and it does have clutchbacks... then it is STILL likely that it is 99% fake.  We can quibble about the specific numbers, but I think that is a good perspective.

 

To specifically discuss your wings (and maybe someone will correct me if I am wrong):

 

The first one.  I suspect that is a fantasy fake wing.  Made using either a cadet hat badge (but more than likely a sweetheart bit of jewelry made by Coro). IIRC the base wing is about right as they did seem to have used that type of cadet badge (minus the prop) for 319th W2.  Also the "th" should be as a superscript, there should be a dot after the T and the W2 fonts, size and local all seem off. You can do that research yourself, and see all the problems.

 

The second one SEEMS to use a Bell base wing (it appears to be an observer wing, which I think was correct). But the base wing seems to be a cast Bell observer wing. Also the 318th is crude and the "dot" between the T and the H is just a slash.  While I am not 100% sure, I would bet dollars to donuts that this is something made and sold by He Who Shall Not be Named.  This particular wing (I recognize the background color) seems to make the rounds.  Its not even close. It is always a good idea to search for JoeVodemort's stuff and familiarize yourself with his products. To be fair, JoeW is and has always been clear that he is making reproductions and NOT fakes being sold as the real deal, but once they get out into the general population... all bets are off.

 

The third wing is another relatively good copy of a CAST Josten wing. There are some good threads on the "tells" about this wing.  But I can say with some certainty that it has very little positive to compare with real vintage Josten WASP wings.  The kiss of death for me is always the PATINA IN A CAN finish... that dull greyish finish.  ugly ugly ugly.

 

Hope that helps.

P

 

 

Not mine, they were on ebay. The patina on the last one looked so odd to me.  It’s really not that hard at all to add genuine patina to something.  If you have some eggs, you have what you need.  Why use what looks like spraypaint?  As far as threads about the tells, the bits and pieces I’ve found here tend to be in responses on threads about other things.  I did see one about the edges being rounded instead of sharper.

Who is He Who Shall Not be Named?  I’m presuming a forger who has quite a reputation.

 

 

 

To wings collectors and others into this specific spot in history, WASPs are well known.  Unfortunately I’ve met many WWII and aviation enthusiasts who have no clue who they are, and outside of aviation and WWII, I’ve met even fewer people who know.  It’s easy to forget that this sphere is niche, and when staying within it, to forget that what’s common knowledge  in this sphere isn’t even remotely common knowledge to the rest of the world at large.

 

If you want your mind blown, then read on: In my ground class, there are some students unfamiliar with Amelia Earhart and Charles Lindberg.  I don’t know if it’s just people not learning because there are more recent things to learn about or what, but it blew my own freaking mind when a couple of the guys didn’t know who Amelia Earhart was.  I guess I can give a small pass on Lindberg since men have had the opportunities to be the first in most things.  But a woman doing a first, then going missing?  The WASPs will become even less known if we don’t do something about it.

[Noelle]

On 6/20/2022 at 5:27 PM, Bull Moose said:

Here is one that sold on eBay a coupe weeks ago for $1999. To my eye it looks like cast copy with weak details on the front and tiny casting pit marks on the back.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/314012177442?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=TJ1hUDBWQ4u&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=-y5jSSKmRs6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

The VERY uneven edge at the top left on the back concerned me on this one.

[Noelle]

On 6/21/2022 at 3:51 PM, pfrost said:

Well, it must be correct if it sold for big $$ on ebay!  LOL.

 

The various WASP "class wings" were awarded to the ladies through 1943, and the Shield of Athena lozeng wing was awarded to classes graduating after that in 1944.  Because the WASP program ended in December of 1944 and I think only 3 or 4 classes of WASPs got those wings.  Since  the relatively short time period used, most of these wings will look almost pristine.  I am always worried about the fakes that look like they have been worn down... that is simply not the case for most WASP wings. 

 

Josten used a silver type frosting finish on many of their wings and often times (but not always) you will find remnants of this finish.  That is always a good sign, but sometimes the ladies would go ahead and polish their wings to a mirror finish. It can be a positive, but not, strictly speaking a negative.

 

There are a few very subtle "tells" that I have IDd on the fake and real WASP wings.  Mostly in the hallmark. Again, these are subtle and can be quibbled about as the strike of the hallmark was not always the same and so there may be variations introduced that way.   But in general...

 

This composite shows a fake next to a "real" deal insert.  There are 3 more obvious tells. A) The "J" in the fake Josten is more rounded (almost like a fish hook), while the "J" in the vintage wings shows a more square bottom profile (loot closely at the bottom of the J).  B) The E in Josten and the I in sterling are more in line with each other in the real ones, but the are offset to the right in the fakes.  There are some other very subtle alignments that are off but the E and I are the easiest ones to ID IMHO.  C) Then there is a sharper wing tip on the vintage wings that is rounded off in the fakes. 

 

Also, the O and R in the fakes are less refined than the O and R in the real deal (red arrows).

 

Sometimes the JOSTEN is lightly stamped and sometimes it is more heavy. This can make it hard to really be sure when comparing wings,  But in GENERAL, the JOSTEN mark is usually finer quality and sharper font than the ones that are faked.

 

Looking at the exact size of the wings will also help.  The quality of the front is going to be very high in the good ones, less so in the bad ones.

Best thing to do is handle or study as many wings as possible.

This is VERY helpful.  Since fakes already abound, and crispness in the detail is exceptionally hard to replicate unless one were to spend thousands in a high-end jeweler who probably wouldn’t replicate anyway, it seems that this info being more laid out in one location would ultimately make it harder for forgers to get away with what they’re doing.  When you take someone who knows there’s a risk, but otherwise isn’t sure and will pay if there’s a chance, and get them to not, then that diminishes the value. When info is more free-flowing, someone who isn’t even aware may be more likely to come by it.  So thank you for this.

 

The waviness on the edges on the back of that pin…

 

I’m so curious about that frosting finish.  I’ve never heard of that.

[pfrost]

I have borrowed this image of a WASP wing from David Hill's collection posted on Bob's site (I hope Bob doesn't mind).  It shows the "frosted" finish of a WASP wing.  Many of the "vintage" JOSTEN wings have remnants of this finish on their wings--also shown are command and senior pilot wings.  I would actually date the last two (command and senior pilot) to KW or post KW time period, but you can clearly see the "frosted" finish used on Josten wings.

 

It isn't a 100% diagnostic feature as many times, the finish was polished off, either by wear on the uniform or by the owner. Sometimes this gives the wings a kind of mottled or freckled appearance. Its hard for fakers to fake this effect.

 

Because most WASP wings were really only worn for less than a year they tend to be more pristine. But again, not always.

[dmar836]

20 hours ago, Noelle said:

..., it seems that this info being more laid out in one location would ultimately make it harder for forgers to get away with what they’re doing.... When info is more free-flowing, someone who isn’t even aware may be more likely to come by it.

Casting a fake is not nearly as complicated as you laid out - no need for a high-end jeweler at all. Backyard casting is a very popular hobby. The info is already out there. New to you but, just like the WASP program, not new to us. Fakers would also love to not have to search for every little detail to make their products more believable. This diversity of info, if anything, helps prevent better fakes. Multiple fakers have been members of this forum are likely still here by means of new accounts, names, and locations. They are already miles ahead of many collectors and need no additional help.

Unfortunately, there is no sweat free solution to learning.

[pfrost]

I think fakers prey on the ignorance and greed of collectors. The fakes can be good but often not as good as you think.

[Noelle]

13 hours ago, pfrost said:

I have borrowed this image of a WASP wing from David Hill's collection posted on Bob's site (I hope Bob doesn't mind).  It shows the "frosted" finish of a WASP wing.  Many of the "vintage" JOSTEN wings have remnants of this finish on their wings--also shown are command and senior pilot wings.  I would actually date the last two (command and senior pilot) to KW or post KW time period, but you can clearly see the "frosted" finish used on Josten wings.

 

It isn't a 100% diagnostic feature as many times, the finish was polished off, either by wear on the uniform or by the owner. Sometimes this gives the wings a kind of mottled or freckled appearance. Its hard for fakers to fake this effect.

 

Because most WASP wings were really only worn for less than a year they tend to be more pristine. But again, not always.

I always thought that that spotting was just some strange patina pattern.  I’ve seen it before.  Thanks for this info!

[Noelle]

12 hours ago, dmar836 said:

Casting a fake is not nearly as complicated as you laid out - no need for a high-end jeweler at all. Backyard casting is a very popular hobby. The info is already out there. New to you but, just like the WASP program, not new to us. Fakers would also love to not have to search for every little detail to make their products more believable. This diversity of info, if anything, helps prevent better fakes. Multiple fakers have been members of this forum are likely still here by means of new accounts, names, and locations. They are already miles ahead of many collectors and need no additional help.

Unfortunately, there is no sweat free solution to learning.

I mean making a fake good enough to pass as the real deal.  Seems like it would easily cost as much as a real one to make a fake one that could pass as real.

Why on earth do they consistently make fakes 1/8” smaller?  That seems so bizarre.

[Noelle]

I’m gonna take it these are also fake, and I’ve found even less info about the lapel pins.  These are by the same seller as the ones I initially posted.

[dmar836]

6 hours ago, Noelle said:

Why on earth do they consistently make fakes 1/8” smaller?  That seems so bizarre.

You would have to understand casting. Heated metal shrinks. It's relatively easy to make a green sand mold of original wings or decent fakes and then cast those. You will get shrinkage from that so this is just one way to assess wings. Now to make a pattern wing the proper percentage oversized to account for the shrinkage would require a lot of work. The shrinkage is not always exactly 1/8" but that's close. There are many other signs of a casting. Some cast wings are so well done that many of the indicators are difficult to find even by experts.

Casting is a very common and affordable home hobby and the technology is thousands of years old. Google or YT will give tons of info but again you have to go look for it.

6 hours ago, Noelle said:

I’m gonna take it these are also fake, ...  These are by the same seller as the ones I initially posted.

I would never buy from one selling other fakes. It's just principle for me. Mistakes can be made and they might have some good items, but it's likely the seller has more knowledge of these things than many buyers.

 

 

[AmHistoryFan]

Hi, I came across these WASP “inspired” wings and I thought I’d let the group weigh in on whether they are a garage made set of wings or if they most likely were a reunion set of wings. 
 

I didn’t pay much for them, and the seller believed they were a reunion wing and did NOT pass them off as being an authentic WW2 period wing. I am just curious if there was a standard reunion wing or if they were primarily just made from piecing things together. 

[5thwingmarty]

I am not aware of this type of base wing being used much past WWII, so it would be unlikely for them to be used to make WASP wings for a reunion in the 50's or later.  Is there evidence on the front of the wing for another device having been removed?  I think these base wings were most commonly used to make Aerial Gunner and Flight Engineer wings.

[AmHistoryFan]

1 hour ago, 5thwingmarty said:

I am not aware of this type of base wing being used much past WWII, so it would be unlikely for them to be used to make WASP wings for a reunion in the 50's or later.  Is there evidence on the front of the wing for another device having been removed?  I think these base wings were most commonly used to make Aerial Gunner and Flight Engineer wings.

I don’t see much except some darkening around the bottom of the lozenge. It’s strange to me that it appears someone removed the clasp back posts (at least that is what I am assuming the circles are on the back) and added a pin on the back. 

[5thwingmarty]

The small circles are targets for attaching the post fittings if used, not just residual markings from having had them removed.

[AmHistoryFan]

48 minutes ago, AmHistoryFan said:

I don’t see much except some darkening around the bottom of the lozenge. It’s strange to me that it appears someone removed the clasp back posts (at least that is what I am assuming the circles are on the back) and added a pin on the back. 

I did find an aerial gunner wing that has the same back, circles, and pin back so I agree that the base wing is most likely an aerial gunner wing. My assumption on the posts being removed was wrong. I viewed bschwartz website, ww2wings.com

[pfrost]

Don't make your life any more difficult that it has be be. As far as legitimate war time WASP wings with the lozenge (aka Shield of Athena), ONLY clutch back, Josten marked wings are good.  Everything else is NOT vintage WWII.

That isn't to say that ALL clutch back Josten marked wings are good, as there are many fakes.  But anything that isn't clutch back and Josten marked is 100% NOT vintage.

 

They did (apparently) make a number of post war "souvenir" and "reunion" type wings for the various functions that the WASPs had since WWII.  BUT... at the same time, many many fake wings were also made for collectors.  Other than getting a wing from the original person and her telling you that she got it at a reunion from 1965.... there really isn't any way to tell.  Some serious and well educated collectors may have found various reunion itimes in the possession of a WASP, but my guess would always default to "unless I have absolute proof otherwise, its a fake made to fool collectors".

 

Remember, up to a few years ago, the general knowledge base for WASP related items was held by only a handful of serious and advanced collectors. There were almost no books for collectors or forums for discussion, etc. Most information would have come from dealers or shared information of dubious quality.  Now, there is much more information available.

[donaldnol]

On 7/17/2022 at 11:04 PM, AmHistoryFan said:

Hi, I came across these WASP “inspired” wings and I thought I’d let the group weigh in on whether they are a garage made set of wings or if they most likely were a reunion set of wings. 
 

I didn’t pay much for them, and the seller believed they were a reunion wing and did NOT pass them off as being an authentic WW2 period wing. I am just curious if there was a standard reunion wing or if they were primarily just made from piecing things together. 

those look cool!