Jump to content

Are any of these WASP wings authentic?


 Share

Recommended Posts

38 minutes ago, Wake1941 said:

All 3 are reproductions 

That’s what I thought since the edges on all three look quite rounded (I wouldn’t be worried about some slight rounding from wear over the years, more like taking-the-edge-off wear from handling amount of rounding), and the last one looks flat rather than having the expected curve.  The Josten marking is in the right place.  Would that be an accurate assessment for that one?

 

I haven’t seen the backs of authentic W-2 and W-6 ones though, and as far as I’m aware, they were all clutch-backs like the third one, though I’m not certain.

 

What should one look for to help authenticate these through pictures?  I’ve scoured this forum, and didn’t find any real list of tells aside from the edges and the curvature.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Bull Moose said:


Check out Bob Schwartz’s website on all things Military Wing badge related. You won’t find a better reference site.

 

http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/usaafwasp.shtml

I saw that site, but there aren’t photos of the backs of most, or much info other than the fronts of a handful of the wings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a newer member, who might be new to wings, you are walking into a proverbial minefield. Even experienced collectors get burned for thousands on WASP wings. Unless you know the provenance, and not just a story of authenticity by a seller, step VERY carefully. I won't touch them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Noelle said:

I saw that site, but there aren’t photos of the backs of most, or much info other than the fronts of a handful of the wings.

 

Apologies my site wasn't able to provide you the information you were looking for.  The numbered WASP wings are exceedingly rare and the vast majority that you will find for sale are reproductions or outright fantasy pieces.  I don't have the backs shown for any on my site because I personally don't own any and the contributor that did share a photo of one of the authentic wings chose to not share a photo of the back to help keep the fakers from getting additional information.  Here are a couple of references that may help:

 

https://cafriseabove.org/wasp_artifact/wasp-medals-and-history-wasp-pilots-badge/

 

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/badge-pilot-women-airforce-service-pilots-wasp/nasm_A19711308000

 

As noted above, unless you get one of these numbered wings directly from the family you need to tread very carefully.  The script on the front is important to pay attention to as is the base wings used.  I've never been able to find one for sale that I trusted enough to purchase.  

 

The other pages on my site tend to have a lot more photos of both the front and back of wings but when it comes to the very rare items some collectors are reluctant to share the backs of the wings.  The Josten wings that are posted on my site are, relatively speaking, more common than the numbered wings.  Originals of those are out there but they are still a minefield so caution should be taken.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, bschwartz said:

 

Apologies my site wasn't able to provide you the information you were looking for.  The numbered WASP wings are exceedingly rare and the vast majority that you will find for sale are reproductions or outright fantasy pieces.  I don't have the backs shown for any on my site because I personally don't own any and the contributor that did share a photo of one of the authentic wings chose to not share a photo of the back to help keep the fakers from getting additional information.  Here are a couple of references that may help:

 

https://cafriseabove.org/wasp_artifact/wasp-medals-and-history-wasp-pilots-badge/

 

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/badge-pilot-women-airforce-service-pilots-wasp/nasm_A19711308000

 

As noted above, unless you get one of these numbered wings directly from the family you need to tread very carefully.  The script on the front is important to pay attention to as is the base wings used.  I've never been able to find one for sale that I trusted enough to purchase.  

 

The other pages on my site tend to have a lot more photos of both the front and back of wings but when it comes to the very rare items some collectors are reluctant to share the backs of the wings.  The Josten wings that are posted on my site are, relatively speaking, more common than the numbered wings.  Originals of those are out there but they are still a minefield so caution should be taken.  

 

Unfortunately, not being able to see the backs also means that fakes will be able to flow freely in the market and give plausible deniability to people who may be in possession of them, and result in more people willing to pay a bit more than Weingarten Gallery’s repros (sold as repros, no attempts there to pass off repros as fakes) on the chance that they could be getting originals.  Scammers would likely try to closer match pics, but right now, there’s nothing stopping them anyway since there’s a huge blank spot that is entirely left unknown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, dmar836 said:

As a newer member, who might be new to wings, you are walking into a proverbial minefield. Even experienced collectors get burned for thousands on WASP wings. Unless you know the provenance, and not just a story of authenticity by a seller, step VERY carefully. I won't touch them. 

 

I’m not new to WASP history (while my grandmother wasn’t a WASP, she grew up with several women who were, was a WAC herself, met my Air Force grandfather at a base not far from Sweetwater where his own job was teaching pilots to fly, and then they ended up transferred to another base used for further WASP-training, keeping them constantly in connection with WASPs—I had no idea until April that WASPs were commonly known about since they were just such a part of life for me and why I always wanted to fly planes, which I am now learning to do), just to their wings.  It guts me knowing that what they did is more or less forgotten, and so I’ve been on the proverbial warpath to change that, making small waves in my local community.  Three of the four who died in 1943/1944 are buried/interred within 25 minutes of where I’m sitting. In my stupid little head, I want a set to make sure I don’t lose steam, so make sure my actions in trying to further their notoriety would be worthy if holding something to important.  I can’t even begin to articulate how important the WASPs are to me, as someone who was always wanted to be like them when we were still in a time when little girls were told that flying was for boys, girls weren’t allowed to be one of te Blue Angels I used to watch every year, and boys were the heroes, while the WASPs were as much of heroes to me as they were to my WAC grandmother.

 

Not gonna lie—I’m tempted to drop a small mint on the lozenge set myself knowing the chance they aren’t real, but I can also afford to do so.  The thing holding me back is an unexplainable feeling that I can’t even figure out how to describe, yet I also get a strong feeling I’d regret passing them by.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/18/2022 at 12:04 PM, Wake1941 said:

All 3 are reproductions 

Sir, would you please tell me how you know?  I know the odds are high on the first two just due to scarcity (the back of the first looks very odd to me as I don’t recall ever seeing wings of any sort molded like that), but the third one?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you'll find that the WASPs are well remembered on this site.  I've been attending the Oshkosh air show every year since 1997 and for years the WASPs had a huge tent and there were lots of WASP veterans that would attend each year.  They published a book one year with short biographies and photos of each of the WASPs and I was able to get about 30 signatures that year.  Unfortunately the last time a WASP attended that I'm aware of was about five years ago.  Losing so many veterans each year.  One of the admins for this site is a huge WASP historian so you will find many people here who share your passion.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, they are hardly forgotten. At out local vintage EAA chapter meeting we had a guest speaker who was a W.A.S.P. and later an astronaut trainee.

If you are ever in the KC area, my wife would gladly go fly with you. Yes, she's merely a woman but a far better pilot than me!!! 😄

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although I have been collecting off and on wings for forty years, I am no expert. Play close attention on what you have been told so far: provenance is everything when considering the Wasp Class wings. Everything. These wings are exceedingly rare, and far more copies exist than originals. I will offer my opinion on the WASP Diamond lozenge wings pictured. The pictures appear to show a cast, artificially aged wing. Compare the length of this wing to known examples. Cast copies are always 1/8” shorter than originals. Start there. How long is this example? How does it compare to known correct WASP wings? And finally, good luck in your hunting. You alone must decide what is acceptable for your collection. When the big guns like Patrick Frost says he would not be happy with a particular wing in his collection, pay attention. I wish you good hunting!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, BHillen said:

Although I have been collecting off and on wings for forty years, I am no expert. Play close attention on what you have been told so far: provenance is everything when considering the Wasp Class wings. Everything. These wings are exceedingly rare, and far more copies exist than originals. I will offer my opinion on the WASP Diamond lozenge wings pictured. The pictures appear to show a cast, artificially aged wing. Compare the length of this wing to known examples. Cast copies are always 1/8” shorter than originals. Start there. How long is this example? How does it compare to known correct WASP wings? And finally, good luck in your hunting. You alone must decide what is acceptable for your collection. When the big guns like Patrick Frost says he would not be happy with a particular wing in his collection, pay attention. I wish you good hunting!

 I thought the edges looked a bit too rounded, and the aging just plain looked strange and not like any silver I’ve ever seen before.  Why are cast copies smaller?  This is the kind of info that it help, so thank you! The auction says 2 5/8”, and I found that they should be 2 3/4”.  Is that correct?

 

Also, I’m not yet familiar with Patrick Frost, but will be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, bschwartz said:

I think you'll find that the WASPs are well remembered on this site.  I've been attending the Oshkosh air show every year since 1997 and for years the WASPs had a huge tent and there were lots of WASP veterans that would attend each year.  They published a book one year with short biographies and photos of each of the WASPs and I was able to get about 30 signatures that year.  Unfortunately the last time a WASP attended that I'm aware of was about five years ago.  Losing so many veterans each year.  One of the admins for this site is a huge WASP historian so you will find many people here who share your passion.

 

 

It’s very, very easy to think that WASPs are well-known to the general public.  Unfortunately, they aren’t. They’re better-known in aviation circles, but not much outside. :(  I lived my entire life thinking they were well-known, which greatly upset me to realize I was wrong about. I’ve talked with some of the ladies who fly one of the WASPs’ B-25’s for air shows (Central Oregon chapter of the 99’s), and part of why they fly it is to try to help get word out about the WASPs.  

 

Was that book "Out Of The Blue And Into History", or another one?  I own a decent number of biographies and autobiographies of WASPs, most of them signed.  Probably my most cherished is one that was inscribed from one WASP to another WASP, because of what the inscription says, though I have books with several signatures.

 

How many are we down to now who are still alive?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, dmar836 said:

Yeah, they are hardly forgotten. At out local vintage EAA chapter meeting we had a guest speaker who was a W.A.S.P. and later an astronaut trainee.

If you are ever in the KC area, my wife would gladly go fly with you. Yes, she's merely a woman but a far better pilot than me!!! 😄

Mere women figured out how the hell to get the B-25 off the ground when men crashed enough to get it dubbed the widow-maker. 😄 What type of planes does your wife fly? Careful about that offer or I might divert a road trip I have in October. 😄 Washington State to Texas, passing through Sweetwater on the way to Houston, then up to OKC to to see how much the FAA smacks people around during the CAMI training. Though I admit I’m trying to decide right now if I should continue training.  I have a lot more hours than it should take to solo, have been flying several times a week, and don’t know if the problem is that I just don’t have what it takes, or what. I’m extremely disheartened right now.

 

But yes, women in general are superior pilots. 😄

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stick with it but be an open book and let your instructor know your frustration. I was kinda hard headed and would get frustrated that things were clicking like when I was younger. Nothing shuts an instructor off like someone who acts like they know everything. I would do that but really just wanted to be allowed do everything myself because I needed that. Overconfident students can get killed and now instructor wants to be art of that. I aced the written but am very independent! Sometimes it takes a different instructor and everything just clicks. It’s one of the first suggestions when someone feels a plateau. Any good instructor would understand and might even be able to suggest another.

If I could do it, anyone can! I had 40hrs before I soloed and 115 hrs before my check ride. I was fortunate to have access to cheap planes later on and only paid instructor and fuel after the first 40hrs in tail wheel. Was still costly. 

Just let us know if you near this area. It’s a small world. 

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As stated, listen to Bob and Patrick, they are correct for the reasons stated.

The wings in the above posts are really bad. After a while you will get good enough to spot fakes pretty quick…good for you for asking here.

Another note on an airplane that is near and dear to me (I know I’m off wing topic here) the B-25 is not a widow maker. I believe your are thinking of the Martin B-26. It had the bad reputation.

The B-25 is rock solid (check out the new Wolf Hound movie for great B-25 air to air action).

Don’t give up on your instruction, the industry is desperately short of pilots.

As Dave said, communication with your instructor is key.

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Noelle said:

But yes, women in general are superior pilots. 😄


Superior to?

 

My apologies, I’m a little lost in this topic.

 

Were we talking about WASP wings?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

B17 John once shared with me an old adage about the B26....  "It was nicknamed the Widow Maker, the Baltimore Whore, the Flying Prostitute (because it had no visible means of support), and One a Day in Tampa Bay, after 15 crashes in one 30-day period."  LOL

 

As for me being some sort of enlightened collector whose sage advice you should seek you.... just think of me as someone with lots of opinions and the inability to remain silent about them.... So don't confuse my proclivity for pompous pontification about wings for any great insight about wings.

 

As for the WASP wings, I believe that everyone can do a very good job of educating themselves about these items with many of the tools already available. There are a couple of fantastic books that show really good and clear examples of these wings--both the class wings and the "Lozenge" (In reality it is the Shield of Athena) wings.  Bob's site is excellent and there have been more than a few excellent threads on this forum.  Plenty of pictures to look at, both good and bad. Also, there are a couple or 3 true experts on the WASP wings on this forum (I am not one of them, I know almost nothing about WASPs).


That being said, because there were so few WASPS (about 1200 or so) and the great interest from collectors, I would think that just about every WASP and/or her family have been contacted by multiple collectors or historians seeking information and wings from these ladies...  The interest in WASPS is not new, and I have heard of people attending even the first few reunions of the WASPS seeking insignia, patches, etc. This means that for the most part, finding something WASP related that comes out of the woodwork is going to be almost impossible, and if you do see legit WASP stuff, it is probably coming out of established collections from serious advanced collectors or significant dealers.  They WILL know the value (and should expect to get that value) and so if the deal is too good to be true.... it probably is.

 

For the class wings, each of the classes had a jeweler made wing crafted from a specific cut down/modified USAAF wing badge that would have been common and easily available to the jewelers in the area.  In general (although there seemed to have some replication), each class used a unique base wing (be it a GEMSCO wing or a Juarez/Walter Lamp wing or a Bell wing).  So the back of those class wings will look exactly like the back of the regular base wing... no tricks there--the jeweler just cut them down and added the shield with the class inforamtion.  The only thing that would be unique to the base wing would be the specifics of how the jeweler cut down the wing.  But on the other hand, the specifics of the class information on the shield is what is going to be important.  There are LOTS of photos of good wings online, and if I was a betting man, I would expect that fakers are making pretty good reproductions of those right now.  Bob put his finger on it, the specifics of those Class Shields are where the true "tells" are.  Again, if it is too good to be true... it probably is.

 

But putting together what is already known about which class was made with which base wing and how the class information was added to that wing (font, size, punctuation, etc), you could be about as expert as most people--outside of those few collectors who have a wing with provenance or actually talked to a living WASP whilst drinking tea and looking through her memoribilia.

 

The Shield of Athena wings (AKA Lozenge wings)...  I think it is fair to say that there is ONLY 1 type.  Made by Josten and always in clutchback.  Having handled a few and seen pictures of more, they are pretty distinct and while the fakes can be good, often not as good as you would think.  These wings seem to show up a bit more frequently, and I got on out of the wood work that had been converted to a bracelet.  Not as difficult to find as the class wings, it is still a hard bird to locate.  And you should expect to pay a good price for one, IF you are getting it from an established collection, auction house, or dealer.  That being said, the FAKES of this wings are legion.  Fakes to confuse, fakes to "fill up a slot with a museum quality reproduction", fantasy pieces, reunion pieces, etc and et all.  But make your life easy and just assume... If its NOT a Josten and if it ISN'T clutch back, its 100% fake (no exceptions!!).  That being said, if it IS marked Josten and it does have clutchbacks... then it is STILL likely that it is 99% fake.  We can quibble about the specific numbers, but I think that is a good perspective.

 

To specifically discuss your wings (and maybe someone will correct me if I am wrong):

 

The first one.  I suspect that is a fantasy fake wing.  Made using either a cadet hat badge (but more than likely a sweetheart bit of jewelry made by Coro). IIRC the base wing is about right as they did seem to have used that type of cadet badge (minus the prop) for 319th W2.  Also the "th" should be as a superscript, there should be a dot after the T and the W2 fonts, size and local all seem off. You can do that research yourself, and see all the problems.

 

The second one SEEMS to use a Bell base wing (it appears to be an observer wing, which I think was correct). But the base wing seems to be a cast Bell observer wing. Also the 318th is crude and the "dot" between the T and the H is just a slash.  While I am not 100% sure, I would bet dollars to donuts that this is something made and sold by He Who Shall Not be Named.  This particular wing (I recognize the background color) seems to make the rounds.  Its not even close. It is always a good idea to search for JoeVodemort's stuff and familiarize yourself with his products. To be fair, JoeW is and has always been clear that he is making reproductions and NOT fakes being sold as the real deal, but once they get out into the general population... all bets are off.

 

The third wing is another relatively good copy of a CAST Josten wing. There are some good threads on the "tells" about this wing.  But I can say with some certainty that it has very little positive to compare with real vintage Josten WASP wings.  The kiss of death for me is always the PATINA IN A CAN finish... that dull greyish finish.  ugly ugly ugly.

 

Hope that helps.

P

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is one that sold on eBay a coupe weeks ago for $1999. To my eye it looks like cast copy with weak details on the front and tiny casting pit marks on the back.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/314012177442?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=TJ1hUDBWQ4u&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=-y5jSSKmRs6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

239D748E-27CF-4769-91E5-F84EDAD49917.jpeg

C7AAF447-F3CA-4FFB-9DED-ABAF956957EB.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow! Clearly a cast wing IMO. $1999? This is what happens when one wants more than one thinks. A basic amount of research would have tipped off a prudent buyer.

Well, "A fool and his money..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Bull Moose said:

Here is one that sold on eBay a coupe weeks ago for $1999. To my eye it looks like cast copy with weak details on the front and tiny casting pit marks on the back.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/314012177442?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=TJ1hUDBWQ4u&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=-y5jSSKmRs6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

239D748E-27CF-4769-91E5-F84EDAD49917.jpeg

C7AAF447-F3CA-4FFB-9DED-ABAF956957EB.jpeg

 somebody that would spend that amount of cash for this crap should have his head exam. at least the seller used a fake wood top table for a fake wing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...