Late 19th-century US Cavalry Dress Helmet

[milcoll73]

hello all i just received this helmet which is well outside my wheelhouse. is it an 1872, 1881, 1902? and what pieces do i need to restore it to its former glory? 

[CAC1901]

Well its a standard 1881 helmet body made for enlistedmen. It can be any branch you want - either mounted with the horsehair plume or foot / staff with the spike.  The vast majority of these that exist - probably 99.5% - are left over unissued Bannermans stock from when the army surplused them in the early 1900's. The majority are Spanish American war era contracts made from 1898-1902.  Sometimes the contract firm and date is still visible inkstamped under the sweatband. Some collector catalogs or outfits still carry the surplus front plates, side buttons, base plates, and spike or plume holder for them as well as surplus plumes.  Check that e-place or dealers here. Should be no problem. Looks like you will need the brass fitting in the top of the helmet to receive the spike or plume. This has a non-military equstrian style doo-hickey attached to the top from its prior use. Probably a costume shop. 

[KurtA]

The inside center top section is odd. Usually a larger brass section with center hole for  the threaded post of a spike or plume holder.
 Does that top section affixed to the top exterior screw off? 

[milcoll73]

5 hours ago, CAC1901 said:

Well its a standard 1881 helmet body made for enlistedmen. It can be any branch you want - either mounted with the horsehair plume or foot / staff with the spike.  The vast majority of these that exist - probably 99.5% - are left over unissued Bannermans stock from when the army surplused them in the early 1900's. The majority are Spanish American war era contracts made from 1898-1902.  Sometimes the contract firm and date is still visible inkstamped under the sweatband. Some collector catalogs or outfits still carry the surplus front plates, side buttons, base plates, and spike or plume holder for them as well as surplus plumes.  Check that e-place or dealers here. Should be no problem. Looks like you will need the brass fitting in the top of the helmet to receive the spike or plume. This has a non-military equstrian style doo-hickey attached to the top from its prior use. Probably a costume shop. 

thanks!

i thought it might be an 1881 but i wasnt sure  how to tell the difference. i figured it was a modified from bannerman because of the modifications. so is chinstrap original or was that added? 

i couldnt find a date or manufacturer under the sweatband, just the QM marking i took a pic of. already been looking around for parts, just not sure what all i needed. ill probably try to make it ohio national guard as thats one of the things i specialize in. 

it makes sense that the dohickeys equestrian as it was advertised as a womans riding helmet. i just wanted to make sure it wasnt some variant i hadnt come across before i removed it lol. 

thanks again for the info! 

[milcoll73]

5 hours ago, KurtA said:

The inside center top section is odd. Usually a larger brass section with center hole for  the threaded post of a spike or plume holder.
 Does that top section affixed to the top exterior screw off? 

it looks like the brass fittings for the top have been removed and the dohickey button added later. its just loosely stitched on top and should come off easily. the chinstrap mounted inside coming through the sweatband also looks like it was added later. . already moved that to the exterior. is it original to the helmet or for something else. its clearly has some age to it like the helmet, but it looks more like the chinstrap from a visored hat than anything ive seen pictured with similar helmets. 

[milcoll73]

i did forget to mention it does look like its had a plate on the front as there are small holes. from the positioning it doesn look like it was a regular eagle badge, but im not all that familiar with where their mounting brackets were located. 

[milcoll73]

also now that ive got the top dohickey off i can see the outline of where the base plate for the spike/plume was. 

[Woodymyster]

2nd on what Kurt said.  You need that metal Helmet Ventilator on the top to attach the plume or spike.  It also looks like someone added a makeshift chinstrap on the inside of the helmet vs the original outside setup.  You have two side buttons, cavalry type.  The strap that wraps around the top of the brim looks to be cut and missing the back portion.  You will have to make a new one as you wont find a replacement.  If you decide to match the buttons you have, you will need a Cavalry enlisted plate, plume base, plume holder, yellow enlisted plume, plume pin, proper chinstrap, and a yellow helmet cord. The most difficult to find (and will be the most expensive) will be the helmet cord.  Most are missing or have repro chinstraps as they are hard to find.  Maybe a little less than $200 for everything but the cord and the chinstrap

 

If you want some research material, check out

"A Guide Book to U.S. Army Dress Helmets 1872-1904" by Kasal and Moore

More of a guidebook to these helmets

or "BRASS SPIKES AND HORSETAIL PLUMES" by Chappell

More to do with the history and regulations of the helmets

 

 

 

[bosshark]

[mikie]

6 minutes ago, bosshark said:

Wow!

[milcoll73]

wow! nice display bosshark!!!!

[milcoll73]

anyone know a good place to source parts and anyone have pics of ohio national guard front plates so i know what to look for? 

[bosshark]

Try S&S firearms website

[milcoll73]

6 hours ago, bosshark said:

Try S&S firearms website

thanks

 

[jasbrenner]

On 5/18/2022 at 1:52 AM, milcoll73 said:

anyone know a good place to source parts and anyone have pics of ohio national guard front plates so i know what to look for? 

The Akron Public Library has several photos of the pre-SAW Ohio militia. One shows the 8th Regiment NCOs seated in a formal pose, all wearing helmets. There is no difference between  Ohio helmet plates and US plates, except that the number 8 was positioned on the crest in the photo. I'm writing from memory so I can't exactly say where on the plate.  It may be that the photos is posted somewhere on the web, but if not, email the APL and they will probably send you a photocopy of it.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Jim

[milcoll73]

6 hours ago, jasbrenner said:

The Akron Public Library has several photos of the pre-SAW Ohio militia. One shows the 8th Regiment NCOs seated in a formal pose, all wearing helmets. There is no difference between  Ohio helmet plates and US plates, except that the number 8 was positioned on the crest in the photo. I'm writing from memory so I can't exactly say where on the plate.  It may be that the photos is posted somewhere on the web, but if not, email the APL and they will probably send you a photocopy of it.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Jim

 

 

 

 

 

is this the pic youre thinking of? 

[jasbrenner]

I am not sure, but I don't think so. The plumes indicate that this is a cavalry unit and the 8th Regiment ONG was an infantry unit. During my next visit to the APL, I will take another look at the photo and post the result. On a related note, the federal QM did not provide dress uniforms to Ohio, so I suspect that the side buttons on the helmet reflect the state seal.

[milcoll73]

7 hours ago, jasbrenner said:

I am not sure, but I don't think so. The plumes indicate that this is a cavalry unit and the 8th Regiment ONG was an infantry unit. During my next visit to the APL, I will take another look at the photo and post the result. On a related note, the federal QM did not provide dress uniforms to Ohio, so I suspect that the side buttons on the helmet reflect the state seal.

well, i got it off of the ohio national guard site which lists it as "1890 ~ Noncommissioned officers, Company B, 8th Infantry Regiment, circa 1890." 

i also noticed the plumes as well which made me wonder. but i notice they dont have the cords normally associated with cavalry. 

 

that would make sense as later ong headwear had state seal buttons and often a state seal over the eagles head as well, at least on later cap badges. guess ill have to be on the lookout for some. thanks!

[KurtA]

I have never seen a helmet side button with a state seal.   I would guess they used the standard US Army style branch buttons.  Have seen lots of NY helmets- they had the standard US Army branch buttons (e.g. crossed rifles or swords) 

[milcoll73]

2 hours ago, KurtA said:

I have never seen a helmet side button with a state seal.   I would guess they used the standard US Army style branch buttons.  Have seen lots of NY helmets- they had the standard US Army branch buttons (e.g. crossed rifles or swords) 

ok thanks. i wondered as ive been specializing ohio related militaria for a few years now and i hadnt come across any from that era anything like those BOS buttons. uniform buttons and the like yes, but not anything like that eras side buttons.

knowing this will make the restoring quest that much easier lol. 

[jasbrenner]

It's too bad we can't see the details better. It certainly looks like there's something on the eagle's breast. Number 8? I'm very curious about this picture and will try to get to APL within the next week or so to verify. As for the side buttons, I am just speculating that they are state buttons. I'm basing that speculation off Major Dick's pill box hat, and two other hats I saw at the recent Ohio Civil War show: one was an 1872 pattern forage cap (which I wish I had bought) and the other was a M1895 forage cap - both had Ohio seal buttons. Granted they're not helmets, but ...

[jasbrenner]

Okay.  I double-checked. This is the same photo as in the APL. Apologies for the confusion. BTW, that is a numeral 8 on the eagle's breast.

[milcoll73]

6 hours ago, jasbrenner said:

Okay.  I double-checked. This is the same photo as in the APL. Apologies for the confusion. BTW, that is a numeral 8 on the eagle's breast.

oh no problem. just glad to get some imput. thanks again! 

[milcoll73]

9 hours ago, jasbrenner said:

Okay.  I double-checked. This is the same photo as in the APL. Apologies for the confusion. BTW, that is a numeral 8 on the eagle's breast.

forgot to ask, did you get a higher resolution copy of the pic? 

[jasbrenner]

No, unfortunately I didn't. I did not have my phone with me, and it never dawned on me to order a print. Sorry.

 

Jim