mdk0911 Posted May 16, 2022 Share #1 Posted May 16, 2022 I haven't seen this type of scabbard for a Patton sword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collectsmedals Posted May 16, 2022 Share #2 Posted May 16, 2022 It looks like it might be a standard Patton scabbard with the covering and the saddle mounts stripped off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted May 16, 2022 Share #3 Posted May 16, 2022 still the canvas cover and metal tip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdk0911 Posted May 16, 2022 Author Share #4 Posted May 16, 2022 no canvas or tip - here is a picture of the end - looks like an officer's scabbard but the mouth is totally different then the 2nd picture which is an officer's scabbard. 3rd picture - the one I'm familiar with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted May 17, 2022 Share #5 Posted May 17, 2022 reminds me of the British 1908 Cav sword scabbards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted May 17, 2022 Share #6 Posted May 17, 2022 It's an officer's garrison scabbard. The profile and guitar drag are the giveaways. The rings have been removed, and the scabbard has been cut below the flare and had the throat stuck back in. Maybe it was cut below the rings? Is the saber uncut? ETA: Do you have the SN of that saber, by chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted May 17, 2022 Share #7 Posted May 17, 2022 21 hours ago, collectsmedals said: It looks like it might be a standard Patton scabbard with the covering and the saddle mounts stripped off. The field scabbard for the M1913 was constructed with a wood core, usually hickory, covered in wet rawhide that was dried into "Mexican iron", and then sheathed in the canvas outer layer. Here's what a field scabbard looks like with the canvas stripped: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdk0911 Posted May 17, 2022 Author Share #8 Posted May 17, 2022 It doesn't look like the blade was cut down to me but? more pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted May 17, 2022 Share #9 Posted May 17, 2022 That's a really desirable early blade, one of the original 200 test sabers whose production was overseen by Patton himself. The saber isn't cut, which means the throat is in approximately the same position length-wise as an uncut scabbard. Using the throat on my reference sample as a guide, and judging from how much is sticking out on your saber, the scabbard was cut about an inch, even with the top of the ring mounts on an uncut scabbard. You can see where they had to rivet the throat to hold it onto the scabbard; the throats usually crimp around the flared end of an uncut scabbard. ETA: the grips have been replaced; sabers with serial numbers below about 1200 had the grip screws inserted from the obverse (right side). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdk0911 Posted May 17, 2022 Author Share #10 Posted May 17, 2022 thx so much for the info - so getting original grips will be next to impossible to find? any estimate of price for this set-up? thx again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted May 17, 2022 Share #11 Posted May 17, 2022 1 hour ago, mdk0911 said: thx so much for the info - so getting original grips will be next to impossible to find? any estimate of price for this set-up? thx again! The Type I grips are very rare in the wild; fewer than 1200 of the first sabers had them. The blade has some staining and looks to have been cleaned a little, but I see no chips or nicks in the edges or pitting on the blade. The furniture looks sound in the pics; the images didn't show the top of the pommel, so I can't say if it has a Springfield or a LF&C pommel. If the stippling comes to a very sharp, defined point, it's a LF&C part. Grips and pommels are the two most replaced items in my experience. For price, I have no idea. I haven't paid much attention to the market in quite a while. The saber is very desirable for M1913 collectors, even with grips, which were likely replaced during its service life. If I were buying, I'd consider it as not having a scabbard as I'd have to replace the one on it. Tent peg scabbards are not common, but you can find them with patience and diligent searching. If I didn't already have a sample or two of the original 200 test sabers, I'd pay up to $1K for it, BUT...I'm a specialist and these sabers are a very important part of the M1913's history, and I usually overpay anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted May 17, 2022 Share #12 Posted May 17, 2022 I recall the officers dress scabbards. Always amazed me how the sword Patton "developed" looked so much like the British 1906 pattern sword. Saw the 1913 sate which is not often seen and then the low number. Thats quite a sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdk0911 Posted May 17, 2022 Author Share #13 Posted May 17, 2022 thx for all the help!! looks like a LF&C grip replacement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted May 17, 2022 Share #14 Posted May 17, 2022 25 minutes ago, doyler said: Always amazed me how the sword Patton "developed" looked so much like the British 1906 pattern sword. Really? Because I think they are about as different as two straight-bladed swords can be. The blade designs and profiles are completely different, as are the gripes. The bowl guard for the M1913 was taken directly from the final version of the M1911 experimental saber. Indeed, many design points for the M1913 were taken directly from the M1911. I suspect it was for manufacturing convenience, as the M1913 was an end-run around the M1911 and had to be produced very quickly to prevent the Cavalry Board from interfering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted May 17, 2022 Share #15 Posted May 17, 2022 18 minutes ago, mdk0911 said: That's a Springfield Armory pommel. LF&C pommels look like this: You can see the uneven and flattened roll on the edge of your guard that is correct for the 200 test sabers; that's the original guard. There should be a unit stamp for the 11th Cavalry somewhere around the outside edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdk0911 Posted May 17, 2022 Author Share #16 Posted May 17, 2022 13 minutes ago, Spathologist said: That's a Springfield Armory pommel. You can see the uneven and flattened roll on the edge of the guard that is correct for the 200 test sabers; that's the original guard. There should be a unit stamp for the 11th Cavalry somewhere around the outside edge. thx again - I thought you meant the stippling comes to a very sharp, defined point - but this one is not sharp point. so original guard but the grips are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted May 17, 2022 Share #17 Posted May 17, 2022 11 minutes ago, mdk0911 said: thx again - I thought you meant the stippling comes to a very sharp, defined point - but this one is not sharp point. so original guard but the grips are? Original guard, probably original pommel, replacement grips that could have been done while in service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdk0911 Posted May 17, 2022 Author Share #18 Posted May 17, 2022 Just now, Spathologist said: Original guard, probably original pommel, replacement grips. thx again - I will check the guard hopefully when i get it - what if no 11Th cav marking? hopefully I'm not bugging your to much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted May 17, 2022 Share #19 Posted May 17, 2022 Just now, mdk0911 said: thx again - I will check the guard hopefully when i get it - what if no 11Th cav marking? hopefully I'm not bugging your to much? No, I love talking about US sabers! If there's no marking, no problem. Your guard is obviously hand-edged as described in the 31 July 1913 letter from the Chief of Ordnance to the Adjutant General, I have no doubt it's original to the saber. Farrington's Swords and Sabers of the United States Army, 1867-1918 notes that only my #112 and Ken Andrews' #33 (that I think member @aefcav now owns) are marked on the guard, both to B Troop, but I don't know how large his sample size of test sabers was. #62, owned by @blademanwas noted after the publication of Farrington's book as also being marked to B Troop. Notably, I've seen no record of a saber being marked to D Troop, which was the other half of the new Cavalry equipment test unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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