"Mint Hawley and FS FB McCord" on for sale board has been tampered with

[akriener]

I sold this helmet to member fight in March of this year, and he has removed the liner chinstrap and cleaned the shell as well. And not disclosing it? Not to mention trying to sell for significantly more than our deal was which is fine, because he owns it but these modifications should be disclosed to the new potential buyer. I've attached my original pictures of the item.

 

 

[Sneaky]

That’s interesting, good eye spotting this. As someone that’s bought an M1 from Fight before, I’m a bit worried about it now being tampered with. 
 

I noticed myself that some corking had been (almost) brushed off. Maybe this is a result of trying to clean it in some way? The interior of the lid was also immaculate, another indicator of it being cleaned.

 

I myself very carefully and lightly clean my helmets, but the issue is when your selling them and don’t disclose it.

 

Again, good catch akr. Interested to see what Alec has to say about this.

[akriener]

11 minutes ago, Sneaky said:

That’s interesting, good eye spotting this. As someone that’s bought an M1 from Fight before, I’m a bit worried about it now being tampered with. 
 

I noticed myself that some corking had been (almost) brushed off. Maybe this is a result of trying to clean it in some way? The interior of the lid was also immaculate, another indicator of it being cleaned.

 

I myself very carefully and lightly clean my helmets, but the issue is when your selling them and don’t disclose it.

 

Again, good catch akr. Interested to see what Alec has to say about this.

A mutual friend alerted me to this, as he has seen my helmets.

 

I've spoken with Alec and his words verbatim "Hey Andrew, the only thing I did was remove the chinstrap for the photos (it's in a plastic bag with the helmet currently to avoid further damage) and give the shell a light wipe down with water.".

 

Sure, it's his set to do with as he pleases but the fact the chinstrap was not pictured or mentioned would make any reasonable buyer think they weren't getting a chinstrap with this set. I'm not frustrated he removed/cleaned the set, I'm frustrated it wasn't disclosed. I don't think removing it for the reasons he stated de-values the set in any way. But it should be communicated up front. My two cents.

[manayunkman]

It sure looks nicer than it used to.

 

He did a great job cleaning it.

 

Im not too concerned about the changes as they are minor.

 

Had they repainted it or done something to deceive the buyer I would be concerned.

[akriener]

3 minutes ago, manayunkman said:

It sure looks nicer than it used to.

 

He did a great job cleaning it.

 

Im not too concerned about the changes as they are minor.

 

Had they repainted it or done something to deceive the buyer I would be concerned.

So you don't think not mentioning the chinstrap, and potentially not including it because it's not listed/pictured isn't deceitful?

[manayunkman]

It doesn’t matter to me.

 

If it was priced lower i wouldn’t hesitate to own it.

 

 

[Sneaky]

3 minutes ago, akriener said:

So you don't think not mentioning the chinstrap, and potentially not including it because it's not listed/pictured isn't deceitful?

I agree. While the shell does look nicer cleaned, I honestly don’t believe Alec would have included it. Even simply throwing it in a picture or at the very least mentioning it in the description would have been enough.

[manayunkman]

I would have ditched the chinstrap too as it doesn’t match the wear of the overall set.

 

[manayunkman]

I really don’t understand why not mentioning the chinstrap is deceitful unless they lied and said the helmet came without one.

 

Had they replaced it and claimed the new one was original to the set then that is deceitful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[akriener]

3 minutes ago, manayunkman said:

I really don’t understand why not mentioning the chinstrap is deceitful unless they lied and said the helmet came without one.

 

Had they replaced it and claimed the new one was original to the set then that is deceitful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fact it wasn't mentioned or pictured implies to any reasonable person who is looking at that advert that one is not included or that it came without one. The way the listing is worded doesn't imply one over the other. While non-disclosure isn't the same as straight out lying, they are both by definition deceitful behavior because their purpose is to conceal information. That's business ethics 101, at least it was when I was at university. It may not impact your decision to buy certain things, but other people may care when they're looking for items. 

 

I've said my piece and made my case, so I hope the seller at the very least updates their listing with the facts.

[stratasfan]

I just read through all the comments here and I looked at the sale listing. To be honest, he is not claiming that it is coming with or without a chin strap. He provided many clear and large pictures. If you are concerned about it not showing a chinstrap, then ask before purchasing. This is not misleading or deceit, in my opinion. He is showing you very good images of what he is selling. He is not saying chinstrap included and then not showing it. 

 

2 hours ago, akriener said:

The fact it wasn't mentioned or pictured implies to any reasonable person who is looking at that advert that one is not included or that it came without one. While non-disclosure isn't the same as straight out lying, they are both by definition deceitful behavior. It may not impact your decision to buy certain things, but other people may care when they're looking for items. 

 

This is actually totally not correct with the sale listing. He isn't not disclosing that it originally came with one or did not come with one. He didn't mention a thing about how it originally came or where it came from or who issued it to the GI back in WWII. If a potential buyer wants more information, it is on them to contact the seller and find out more information before buying. 

 

As far as cleaning it . . . that is his own business while he owns it. As a buyer, look at the pictures and ask questions before committing to a purchase. You are buying what this seller is listing, not what a previous seller listed when he sold it in the past. 

 

 

This thread is closed, as enough has been said here about this topic. If anybody has any concerns about this at all, please PM me personally. 

 

EDIT:  To clarify this - You are buying what this seller is listing, not what a previous seller listed when he sold it in the past. I do not mean when someone buys a plain helmet, repaints it as something else and then sells it as original. I did not see any of that in the original listing. When an item is being resold but not claiming anything it isn't . . . I still say . . . you are buying from the current listing, not what it was sold as before.

 

[stratasfan]

OK . . . a few have requested to be allowed to post replies. I'm opening this again, after having discussed this with several members. If it goes anything but completely polite and cordial, I will not hesitate to shut it down again. Also, any of the helmet Mods may decide to do something here, too. I'm simply coming at this from a buying/selling angle. 

 

Feel free to say what you want, as long as it doesn't go against the rules. But never accuse or attack another member in a public thread. The OP should have used the report button on the sale thread and it would have been handled by the staff. The report button is there for very good reasons. Here is a How To, for anyone who doesn't know about it:

 

 

[Usmc2004]

I would just like to add I have purchased several helmets/liners from Fight, Nothing has been even remotely deceitful or questionable.  I would absolutely buy from him again.  I see nothing wrong with his listing, if he wants to re sell something after cleaning it up and removing an interchangeable/replaceable piece that is totally up to him. I feel that this whole situation could have probably been handled with a couple PMs.

[ArchangelDM]

Ok so firstly the chin strap is broken and looked to have been in terrible disrepute, that would have been the first thing to go. 
Secondly it had left a stain on the lid which Fight had cleaned with water, he has neither tampered or changed anything on the helmet. 
Fights a good guy and it’s his helmet set, if he wants to loose a broken strap that’s fine 

[bigschuss]

In the hobby of collecting WWII German and US helmets there are many and often encountered deceitful selling practices that we can all agree should be called out when they are spotted...humped up paint jobs, fabricating provenance, switching liners, etc.  I see none of that here.  

 

Normally I would never advocate cleaning any original helmet in any way.  But this one was begging to be cleaned up a bit.  The helmet looks WAY better cleaned and without that strap.  Let's face it, the helmet has no combat provenance.  It sat in storage, or on a shelf, or in a footlocker for the duration.  Looks great.  

 

 

[akriener]

3 hours ago, bigschuss said:

Normally I would never advocate cleaning any original helmet in any way.  But this one was begging to be cleaned up a bit.  The helmet looks WAY better cleaned and without that strap.  Let's face it, the helmet has no combat provenance.  It sat in storage, or on a shelf, or in a footlocker for the duration.  Looks great.  

 

 

 

Then you should know from collecting German helmets, if you even do, that cleaning them to this degree let alone at all is basically considered sacrilege. Unless they are a rusty relic to be treated with Oxalic acid/electrolysis or are borderline breaking down and need to be intervened with something for preservation such as renaissance wax. I am one of several admins in 5 of the largest military helmet groups on Facebook spanning just under 36,000 members combined. And I can tell you from experience that people have presented examples similar to these circumstances before and the person who did the cleaning or tinkering or whatever gets ripped on every single time - regardless if the helmet was unissued or not. Maybe it's not that big of a deal in the land of M-1s.

[manayunkman]

The M1 doesn’t look tampered with or cleaned to the extent that it’s ruined.

 

In fact it looks much better and there is no trace of anything being done.

 

What did everyone on Facebook say about this lid?

My opinion is that getting rid of the chinstrap and brown leather powder was a good idea.

 

[akriener]

1 minute ago, manayunkman said:

The M1 doesn’t look tampered with or cleaned to the extent that it’s ruined.

 

In fact it looks much better and there is no trace of anything being done.

 

What did everyone on Facebook say about this lid?

My opinion is that getting rid of the chinstrap and brown leather powder was a good idea.

 

I didn't post this particular exchange on Facebook because it didn't happen on that platform, despite fight being a member on some of the helmet groups. I had shared the helmet there however when I originally had it, so people know what it looked like.

 

To be clear - I am not saying it doesn't look cleaner, because it's obvious it does, but that's not the focus here. But if you saw my OG post and then saw it as it is now while trying to buy it, wouldn't you be scratching your head saying why does it look so different?

 

Anyway, I've shared my thoughts on it, I have nothing else to add and have no further interest of going around and around. People here have different opinions and that's how it should be.

[bigschuss]

38 minutes ago, akriener said:

 

Then you should know from collecting German helmets, if you even do, that cleaning them to this degree let alone at all is basically considered sacrilege. Unless they are a rusty relic to be treated with Oxalic acid/electrolysis or are borderline breaking down and need to be intervened with something for preservation such as renaissance wax. I am one of several admins in 5 of the largest military helmet groups on Facebook spanning just under 36,000 members combined. And I can tell you from experience that people have presented examples similar to these circumstances before and the person who did the cleaning or tinkering or whatever gets ripped on every single time - regardless if the helmet was unissued or not. Maybe it's not that big of a deal in the land of M-1s.

 

That's why I said...."normally I would never advocate the cleaning of an original helmet."   But yes, I hear you.  I get that fully.  

 

I don't do FB helmet groups.  I have been collecting M1's and German helmets since I was a kid in the early 80's.  I probably have the same experience you do.  Maybe more?  

 

IMHO, removing that broken strap and cleaning the visor area of this helmet was a huge improvement that did no harm.  Was the strap original to the helmet?  Was the liner original to the helmet?  If so....OK yes.  You could make the argument that a 100% original helmet/liner combo was tampered with, and that's a big no-no.  Did this helmet have any provenance?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[akriener]

8 minutes ago, bigschuss said:

 

That's why I said...."normally I would never advocate the cleaning of an original helmet."   But yes, I hear you.  I get that fully.  

 

I don't do FB helmet groups.  I have been collecting M1's and German helmets since I was a kid in the early 80's.  I probably have the same experience you do.  Maybe more?  

 

IMHO, removing that broken strap and cleaning the visor area of this helmet was a huge improvement that did no harm.  Was the strap original to the helmet?  Was the liner original to the helmet?  If so....OK yes.  You could make the argument that a 100% original helmet/liner combo was tampered with, and that's a big no-no.  Did this helmet have any provenance?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, didn't mean to make it sound like I was attacking you or anything because I'm not. I haven't been collecting anywhere near as long as you, but I have surrounded myself with knowledgable people from both the M-1 and the German side of things, been involved in multiple forums and have bought books and educated myself the best I can. And continue to learn daily. I would have to look back through my notes to see if I had anything jotted down from the person I got it from. If I recall there were very few military items from the estate I got it from. So many times I've ran into families who refuse to share any information, even just the name of the person. I had a couple other folks take a look at it and we all agreed it was a matching set. Unissued most likely, but still matching.

[Airborne-Hunter]

I looked at the photos. The cleaning is simply dusting off the leather dust that the chinstrap created. I don't see anything else. Hardly cleaning in any sense of the word. Anyone who has collected for any period of time knows leather dust is like glitter, it gets everywhere. Additionally, some people are allergic to it. More so, it can stain if it gets wet. The cotton exterior fabric is tantamount to a textbook stain candidate. The chinstrap certainly does not appear to be original to the helmet to me...match its condition to the sweatband...could be wrong, but none the less, its broken anyway and easily could have been removed for any number of other reasons.

More importantly, this helmet is not named. It holds no significant significant historical value other than being a nice period example. It has not been altered in any manner that would change or alter that fact. As such, even if someone were to add a period chinstrap it wouldn't alter anything. It'd still be a period helmet with a period strap. Anyone who knows anything about helmets know these removeable straps were not factory fitted. 

I would much rather have a period original helmet with original strap than without. The strap this one "came with" is a problem on multiple levels. I would have ditched it too. Any museum curator would as well because it poses a risk to the helmet as a whole and the articles around it. 

If anything I have said still does not resonate please consider the following: Leather dust is a known and documented carcinogen. 

 

I think this topic is done. I don't know the member FIGHT, but feel sorry for him. What a waste of energy this has been. 

ABN

[akriener]

5 minutes ago, Airborne-Hunter said:

I looked at the photos. The cleaning is simply dusting off the leather dust that the chinstrap created. I don't see anything else. Hardly cleaning in any sense of the word. Anyone who has collected for any period of time knows leather dust is like glitter, it gets everywhere. Additionally, some people are allergic to it. More so, it can stain if it gets wet. The cotton exterior fabric is tantamount to a textbook stain candidate. The chinstrap certainly does not appear to be original to the helmet to me...match its condition to the sweatband...could be wrong, but none the less, its broken anyway and easily could have been removed for any number of other reasons.

More importantly, this helmet is not named. It holds no significant significant historical value other than being a nice period example. It has not been altered in any manner that would change or alter that fact. As such, even if someone were to add a period chinstrap it wouldn't alter anything. It'd still be a period helmet with a period strap. Anyone who knows anything about helmets know these removeable straps were not factory fitted. 

I would much rather have a period original helmet with original strap than without. The strap this one "came with" is a problem on multiple levels. I would have ditched it too. Any museum curator would as well because it poses a risk to the helmet as a whole and the articles around it. 

If anything I have said still does not resonate please consider the following: Leather dust is a known and documented carcinogen. 

 

I think this topic is done. I don't know the member FIGHT, but feel sorry for him. What a waste of energy this has been. 

ABN

Two completely different shades of color on the shell and you consider that "dusting"? Wiping a shell down with water would not change the paint this much.

 

These are photos that were sent to me in a well lit room:

 

Photo I took the day I got it on 3/10/22 at 6:08 PM outside:

 

Seller's photo under a light box:

[644td]

I believe this thread has run its course. This whole subject matter should have been handled through PM’s and Admins. 
  I think Alec was within his rights removing the strap and “cleaning the helmet” the helmet was not altered or faked to look like or be sold as something it wasn’t.

  As to the last photo of the helmet, helmet colors look different based on different lighting conditions. 
 

marty

 

  

[manayunkman]

39 minutes ago, Airborne-Hunter said:

I looked at the photos. The cleaning is simply dusting off the leather dust that the chinstrap created. I don't see anything else. Hardly cleaning in any sense of the word. Anyone who has collected for any period of time knows leather dust is like glitter, it gets everywhere. Additionally, some people are allergic to it. More so, it can stain if it gets wet. The cotton exterior fabric is tantamount to a textbook stain candidate. The chinstrap certainly does not appear to be original to the helmet to me...match its condition to the sweatband...could be wrong, but none the less, its broken anyway and easily could have been removed for any number of other reasons.

More importantly, this helmet is not named. It holds no significant significant historical value other than being a nice period example. It has not been altered in any manner that would change or alter that fact. As such, even if someone were to add a period chinstrap it wouldn't alter anything. It'd still be a period helmet with a period strap. Anyone who knows anything about helmets know these removeable straps were not factory fitted. 

I would much rather have a period original helmet with original strap than without. The strap this one "came with" is a problem on multiple levels. I would have ditched it too. Any museum curator would as well because it poses a risk to the helmet as a whole and the articles around it. 

If anything I have said still does not resonate please consider the following: Leather dust is a known and documented carcinogen. 

 

I think this topic is done. I don't know the member FIGHT, but feel sorry for him. What a waste of energy this has been. 

ABN

Amen

[Mr.Jerry]

IMO that is just a lighting change- something we call camera "white balance" or "color temperature".  The marks on the helmet would not be the same if it was repainted or otherwise modified as you seem to be inferring.