Manganese Swivel bales

[326thAEB]

I just got an early Vietnam M1C helmet. Underneath the cover there is a front seam swivel bail helmet with a 50s style glossy overpaint. The rim is made of manganese steel, which I know is common on late ww2 helmets, but the bales are also made of manganese steel. Was this common? I have other manganese rim helmets but they have stainless swivel bales. 

[CavalryCombatant]

I’m on the fence about calling it common, but certainly not rare.  I believe they were done fairly late in the war, I recall having a time-range on these but I can’t seem to remember it off the top of my head.  

 

I’ve got a handful of them, definitely a neat variant. 
 

 

[326thAEB]

Thanks very much for the information! Here’s more pictures of the helmet. The heavy repaint obscures any marks but I am almost certain it is a McCord made helmet. What is also strange on this helmet is that there is quite a gap in the front seam 

[twthmoses]

19 hours ago, 326thAEB said:

I just got an early Vietnam M1C helmet. Underneath the cover there is a front seam swivel bail helmet with a 50s style glossy overpaint. The rim is made of manganese steel, which I know is common on late ww2 helmets, but the bales are also made of manganese steel. Was this common? I have other manganese rim helmets but they have stainless swivel bales. 

 

The rings are not manganese steel, they are low carbon steel. In May 1943, McCord was allowed to used low carbon steel for the loops, at that time fixed loops. They were not allowed to used low carbon steel for the rims, which was what they really wanted. Paint adheres well to low carbon steel, not so well to stainless steel. At the same time McCord was allowed to used stamped steel for the brass fittings on the chinstraps.

 

As have been written about many times in Watertown ww2 docs, McCord was often in favor of changes that gave a better product,- when the burden of the change lay primary on other companies/Army. It was demonstrated by Watertown that the current welding procedure for loops, was poor if other types of metal was used, including low carbon steel. Too much heat for too long. Therefore, changing metal for loops would require McCord to change procedure for welding. Knowing that, maybe not surprising low carbon steel was not used for the fixed loops.

 

Low carbon steel rings was eventually introduced around lot 1050. A few below exist though. Note the range 970-990 has a high number of late drawn discs, and thus some of them will have this. From about lot 1070 to 1120 you have a 50/50 of carbon/stainless loop rings. From about lot 1120 to 1215 it’s about 100% low carbon steel rings and from lot 1215 to 1300 about 25/75 for stainless, though with a much higher carbon use in the late lot 1270-1300 range. The holder for the rings can also be found in low carbon steel, but much rarer. Highest concentration is found in the 1060-1150 range. All other ranges have a very low use.

 

I suspect your shell, being a front seam, manganese rim and carbon loop ring, has a lot stamps in the 1060-1123 range.

[326thAEB]

28 minutes ago, twthmoses said:

 

The rings are not manganese steel, they are low carbon steel. In May 1943, McCord was allowed to used low carbon steel for the loops, at that time fixed loops. They were not allowed to used low carbon steel for the rims, which was what they really wanted. Paint adheres well to low carbon steel, not so well to stainless steel. At the same time McCord was allowed to used stamped steel for the brass fittings on the chinstraps.

 

As have been written about many times in Watertown ww2 docs, McCord was often in favor of changes that gave a better product,- when the burden of the change lay primary on other companies/Army. It was demonstrated by Watertown that the current welding procedure for loops, was poor if other types of metal was used, including low carbon steel. Too much heat for too long. Therefore, changing metal for loops would require McCord to change procedure for welding. Knowing that, maybe not surprising low carbon steel was not used for the fixed loops.

 

Low carbon steel rings was eventually introduced around lot 1050. A few below exist though. Note the range 970-990 has a high number of late drawn discs, and thus some of them will have this. From about lot 1070 to 1120 you have a 50/50 of carbon/stainless loop rings. From about lot 1120 to 1215 it’s about 100% low carbon steel rings and from lot 1215 to 1300 about 25/75 for stainless, though with a much higher carbon use in the late lot 1270-1300 range. The holder for the rings can also be found in low carbon steel, but much rarer. Highest concentration is found in the 1060-1150 range. All other ranges have a very low use.

 

I suspect your shell, being a front seam, manganese rim and carbon loop ring, has a lot stamps in the 1060-1123 range.

That is amazing information. Thank you so much for posting! Your post contained more information than I was able to find in the past two days of searching. I really appreciate it. Unfortunately, with the heavy repaint the lot number is not visible. I won't try to expose it at all. I'll post the whole helmet tonight when I get home. 

[TsrorsT]

I've certainly never seen this before! Or at least not noticed 😅 thank you all for bringing this to light, a very neat little variant for sure.